30 20:28:00 tommost auchter: Does /dev/audio handle many channels (5.1, etc.)?
30 20:30:00 andy753421 haha, some microsoft guy criticizing google: 'Everything is pretty much run by [engineering] — PMs and testers are conspicuously absent from the process.'
30 20:31:00 andy753421 I think that says something about the usefulness of 'project management' and 'quality assurance' :)
30 20:34:00 auchter tommost: nope, only two. no big loss, all of my music is either stereo or mono.
30 20:35:00 Morasique andy753421: i read that article, it was thoroughly amusing
30 21:56:00 auchter excellent plan 9 intro: http://www.quanstro.net/newbie-guide.pdf
30 21:56:00 auchter well, at least a much better intro than 9.intro.pdf ;)
30 22:29:00 octavious auchter: i am curious as to how you use plan9
30 22:29:00 auchter octavious: how do you mean?
30 22:30:00 octavious in terms of your environment
30 22:31:00 octavious like, do you have it running in a vm, are you just using the userspace stuff on top of linux..or
30 22:32:00 octavious forgive me if i am missing something in my ignorance
30 22:32:00 auchter for the most part, i use plan9port (mostly plumber and rc), though with the release of 9vx i've been using that more often
30 22:33:00 auchter i used to run it in a vm, but qemu's a bit of a pain
30 22:36:00 octavious yeah, i used qemu awhile for windows
30 22:36:00 octavious one of the cool things i read about it is that you can use it with gdb to debug an OS
30 22:36:00 octavious which sounds kind of cool...
30 22:37:00 auchter i really should learn a debugger sometime... i've mostly just gotten by using fprintf
30 22:38:00 octavious yeah, at work i can't use a debugger because i am developing on vxworks..
30 22:39:00 octavious there is a debugger, but its a pain to get a license and learn how to use it
30 22:39:00 octavious so i just use printf and a debugging console
30 22:39:00 auchter hey, if it's good enough for kernighan, it's good enough for me
30 22:41:00 octavious i have gotten a hell of a lot better using vim...its my primary IDE at work
30 22:41:00 octavious noone ever told me about i_CTRL-R
30 22:43:00 shadghost hugs everyone
30 22:44:00 auchter i use vim at work a ton as well, but i've only improved a little bit
30 22:44:00 auchter my goal is to one day be as completely perplexing as andy753421
30 22:45:00 octavious there are a few things i still want to do..
30 22:45:00 octavious script dwm-like window management for vim...
30 22:45:00 auchter i've found vim's split window stuff just fine, actually
30 22:45:00 octavious i find that the built-in window movement commands are braindead
30 22:50:00 andy753421 i've managed to get used to the vim window commands, but they are a bit annoying
30 22:51:00 andy753421 the splitting in vim is more powerful than dwm/wmii/awesome though, so their keybindings wouldn't really work all the time
30 22:52:00 andy753421 in other news, I put up a new version of mk.vim and rc.vim
30 22:53:00 andy753421 mk.vim is getting close to being done and has a list of bugs/unimplemented features at the top.. I also make a test.mk
30 22:57:00 shadghost realised that it is futile to try to hug people over irc
30 23:12:00 andy753421 Whoo! Plan9 was just featured on the daily show!
30 23:18:00 octavious heh, what for?
30 23:19:00 andy753421 eh, it was a reference to the movie
30 23:20:00 octavious ohh i see
30 23:20:00 octavious that makes more sense
01 00:05:00 andy753421 auchter: http://andy753421.ath.cx/status.vim
01 01:09:00 tommost hugs shadghost
01 03:06:00 shadghost hugs tommost right back
01 10:41:00 Morasique AAAAAH! how in the 20 years of Windows' existance has nobody at Microsoft gotten the dialog "Cannot copy file: It is being used by another program" and thought "Wait....what?"
01 16:54:00 andy753421 -F, -t, -s, -d... why can't we have a standard flag for field separators?
01 16:56:00 auchter i suggest --list-of-field-separators=
01 16:57:00 andy753421 auchter: do you know if plan9 standardized flags? (or did it just remove them?)
01 16:58:00 auchter no idea, what commands in particular are you referring to?
01 17:00:00 auchter i suspect that they didn't just get rid of the flags, they got rid of the commands, too ;0
01 17:02:00 andy753421 cut/paste: -d, column,join,sort: -t, awk: -f, i don't remember what -s was
01 17:03:00 auchter well, cut and paste are gone
01 17:04:00 andy753421 seq uses -s
01 17:26:00 tommost So I just spent a minute or two looking for Firefox among my desktops when I realized that it had obviously disappeared in the night, as it is wont to do.
01 17:32:00 tommost They really need to fix that.
01 17:33:00 auchter i haven't had any issues like that
01 17:34:00 tommost It happens pretty much every night for me.
01 17:34:00 auchter i haven't had firefox crash in months
01 17:34:00 tommost It's probably a 64-bit thing.
01 17:35:00 tommost Stupid Flash.
01 17:35:00 tommost It comes with extra features when you're on an unsupported architecture!
01 17:36:00 tommost Sometimes it displays as nothing but a gray box—you can't possibly get rickrolled!
01 17:39:00 tommost http://cheese.blartwendo.com/web21-demo.html
01 17:43:00 auchter tommost: or, why i hate javascript
01 17:44:00 auchter tommost: congratulations, you managed to make firefox crash on me minutes after i said that it hadn't crashed in months
01 18:03:00 tommost dances for joy!
01 19:53:00 tommost auchter: How are the plans for the robot coming?
01 19:57:00 auchter i have many ideas, just not many that are implemented yet; i blame work for sapping me of the desire to do anything remotely thought intensive
01 19:57:00 tommost Still planning on CAN?
01 19:57:00 auchter i plan to start work on it again this next week
01 19:57:00 auchter so far, but i'm not going to make a final decision on that until i have time to play around with actually programming some stuff that uses it
01 19:58:00 auchter it may end up being too cumbersome, though i really think it is the best possible way to do what we need to do
01 19:58:00 auchter but like i said, i haven't actually tried it yet
01 19:58:00 tommost Mmmm.
01 19:58:00 tommost Have you been in communication with Jon at all?
01 19:59:00 auchter nope, not at all; you?
01 19:59:00 tommost Nope.
01 20:02:00 tommost So what are your ideas?
01 20:05:00 auchter to be honest, i've mostly forgotten. luckily i have them written down somewhere, and the accompanying files somewhere else
01 20:05:00 tommost That wouldn't be on the wiki, I hope...
01 20:05:00 tommost :(
01 20:06:00 auchter no, though i do wish i had that... i had some stuff on there
01 20:07:00 tommost Yeah, I have a ton of notes from the competition to put up (including a huge list of stuff to buy) myself.
01 20:11:00 auchter i vote (futilely) that we use werc (http://repo.cat-v.org/werc/) instead of whatever php/mysql monstrosity we were likely running before and will likely be running again
01 20:12:00 tommost You'll find that I am entirely open to anything that doesn't involve PHP.
01 20:12:00 tommost I was going to do an ultra-simple PHP thing myself, though, mainly because we can't escape MediaWiki.
01 20:12:00 auchter why can't we?
01 20:12:00 tommost boos MediaWiki and its crappy markup
01 20:12:00 tommost Well, I suppose we could.
01 20:13:00 tommost We've already switched wiki systems once. Why not again?
01 20:13:00 auchter yeah, werc isn't really a wiki though, more of a cms
01 20:14:00 tommost Yeah, we do need a wiki.
01 20:14:00 auchter personally i'd like something that uses markdown for the syntax
01 20:14:00 tommost And while a simple wiki would be pretty easy to implement, some of the more advanced features we're using—image uploading, for one—would be a pain.
01 20:14:00 tommost Markdown is nice.
01 20:14:00 auchter though markdown doesn't support tables and such
01 20:14:00 tommost That's what HTML is for.
01 20:15:00 tommost MediaWiki's table syntax is awful, anway.
01 20:15:00 auchter but you can always put in the html for it, and judging by what i've seen in the lug wiki...
01 20:15:00 tommost *anyway.
01 20:16:00 tommost I also like reStructuredText, but it caters more to people using actual editors instead of crappy textboxes on a web page.
01 20:16:00 tommost It supports most anything you want, aside from certain nested inline markup constructs.
01 20:20:00 auchter also, is there any reason why bela is still down?
01 20:20:00 tommost It shouldn't be.
01 20:20:00 tommost I know that I turned it on.
01 20:20:00 tommost And it seemed to have gotten to the point where you can log in.
01 20:21:00 auchter uh, it shouldn't have... there is no login...
01 20:21:00 tommost It had a text mode login onscreen.
01 20:21:00 tommost "bela#" or something like that.
01 20:21:00 auchter oh, that was the shell prompt
01 20:22:00 auchter well, that's strange that it's not working...
01 20:22:00 tommost It may have a new IP address.
01 20:22:00 auchter well, time to nmap 137.112.99.*
01 20:30:00 auchter yeah, i don't see it
01 20:31:00 tommost Hm...
01 20:31:00 tommost Well, I'll look into it the next time I'm over there.
01 20:31:00 auchter /afs/rose-hulman.edu/users/stu2006/auchtemm if you're interested
01 20:31:00 tommost Probably Thursday.
01 20:31:00 tommost Okay.
01 20:31:00 auchter er, /afs/rose-hulman.edu/users/stu2006/auchtemm/output
01 20:32:00 tommost Permission denied.
01 20:33:00 auchter it's in Public/ now, i blame afs
01 20:36:00 tommost There's surprisingly little in that subnet, really.
01 20:41:00 auchter someone should file a support ticket to iait complaining about the inability to change your login shell
01 20:42:00 tommost Done.
01 20:42:00 auchter great. i anxiously await their ignoral
01 20:43:00 auchter that's actually not a word at all, is it?
01 20:43:00 tommost Of course, I don't actually want to change it to zsh, since that breaks sshfs.
01 20:43:00 tommost No, it's not.
01 20:43:00 auchter i thought it was just executing another shell in your .cshrc that broke sshfs
01 20:44:00 auchter i also thought there was a workaround for that
01 20:44:00 tommost Yeah.
01 20:44:00 tommost You check whether its an interactive login and then exec zsh.
01 20:57:00 auchter how many people don't accept his apology?
01 20:57:00 tommost Awww... but he was so nice about it.~
01 21:06:00 tommost jboticsource: This year on SGA I suggest that you propose a twenty-minute delay in the dispatch of all-campus e-mails. The e-mail would remain revocable by the sender, giving them time to find and correct errors before subjecting the entire campus to their inability to proofread.
01 21:09:00 octavious jboticsource: you comin to NI week?
01 21:15:00 jboticsource i think i am
01 21:15:00 jboticsource coming to NI Week
01 21:16:00 jboticsource tom, about the all campus emails
01 21:16:00 jboticsource i think there should be someone who filters them
01 21:16:00 jboticsource so like stupid stuff goes away
01 21:16:00 jboticsource it is abused by many, and annoys all of us
01 21:18:00 tommost But who'd do the filtering?
01 21:18:00 tommost I don't want IAIT do to it.
01 21:18:00 jboticsource it is a real problem
01 21:18:00 jboticsource a subscription system may do well
01 21:18:00 tommost I think that we'd be better off organizing a bunch of students to spam people that send out stupid ones.
01 21:18:00 jboticsource lol
01 21:19:00 jboticsource or like some sort of automted script
01 21:21:00 tommost Morasique: https://hosted.fedoraproject.org/d-feet/
01 21:22:00 jboticsource it would be pretty trivial to set up thunderbird
01 21:22:00 jboticsource to reflect spam
01 21:23:00 octavious organize a student revolt. spam the spammers...that sounds messy
01 21:24:00 jboticsource octavious: the problem is that i think the general campus does not read thier email anyway enough to care. LUG cares cuz we are like that, but i think the average student does not care enough to act. we need to send out all campus emails about sending all campus emails lol. that woudl be funny
02 01:31:00 Morasique tommost: (i'm forever back in the log) i have the same firefox problem on x86
02 01:31:00 Morasique also, nice with the nick coloring inside messages, i don't know how long logview has had that but i just noticed
02 01:34:00 Morasique auchter: you would do "fs sa -dir ~/output -acl mosttw read" to give tommost access to ~/output
02 01:36:00 Morasique jboticsource: we've talked about a subscription system many times for e-mail, it makes perfect sense in that only interested people would get e-mails, but all the clubs would hate it because spamming more people gives them a better chance of sucking them in
02 01:39:00 Morasique tommost: thanks, d-feet is excellent
02 11:05:00 Morasique wow, that was a "targeted attack against an organization"? i thought somebody had gotten e-mail pretending to be from IAIT, not e-mail from the "educational gateway messaging center" that apparently controls all .edu e-mail addresses
02 13:13:00 Morasique i'm really hoping IAIT isn't planning to alert us everytime they don't send out an e-mail
02 14:05:00 Morasique HA. i stack allocated something i needed to return from a method, and then realized what I was doing. I can be taught after all
02 14:10:00 andy753421 speaking of stack allocations.. i recently found out about alloca(3)
02 14:16:00 Morasique like, that it exists?
02 14:17:00 Morasique it gets used a lot in my project, i don't know how widespread it is though, i'd never seen it used anywhere before this summer
02 14:18:00 andy753421 yea, i had never heard of it before
02 14:20:00 auchter nor had i seen it before...
02 14:22:00 auchter the BUGS section is enough to make me avoid it, i think
02 14:25:00 auchter you know, i'm beginning to like how ant completely ignores the fact that it has already built all the dependencies for this target and rebuilds them anyway
02 14:25:00 auchter it gives me a nice 3 minute break each time i need to build this file.
02 14:34:00 auchter $ find . | grep xml$ | xargs wc -l | sed '$!d'
02 14:34:00 auchter 19441 total
02 14:45:00 Morasique auchter: i can attest to the first bug on that list, it's a PITA
02 14:46:00 Morasique auchter: it's a feature: http://xkcd.com/303/
02 15:02:00 andy753421 stupid interpreted languages and memory requirements, I want structs!
02 15:24:00 andy753421 I love getting to use unix tools to do something useful :) 'tail -n +2 < radar.csv | cut -f3 -d, | sort | uniq | wc -l'
02 17:15:00 Morasique i can't believe how often yubnub is down. someday when i have a spare 20 minutes i'm going to duplicate the entire functionality of that site on my local machine and just use that, they're as bad as twitter but with about .01% of the users
02 17:26:00 Morasique i've gotten into an annoying habit of typing the emacs save keybinding when i try to save in any program, and since it's Ctrl+X, Ctrl+S, in most programs i try to cut nothing and then save anyway so it works out, but in visual studio for some reason Ctrl+X means "delete the current line", and i keep deleting lines haphazardly
02 18:08:00 collinjc So the power supply of my switch seems to be (at least partially) functional.
02 18:09:00 collinjc For some reason, without doing anything other than disassembling it and unplugging the rest of the switch from the power supply, it now powers up, despite the fact that it had absolutely seemed as though one of the capacitors had blown.
02 18:10:00 collinjc Due to the loud pop and black residue on the capacitor.
02 18:12:00 collinjc I'm tempted to reassemble it to see if it happens to work.
02 18:20:00 collinjc Well, it is fully powered up and sitting in the kitchen now. From what I can tell, it seems as though it should fully work.... Which makes me wonder what exactly exploded inside of it.
02 19:32:00 octavious anyone used musicbrainz?
02 19:55:00 collinjc tommost: So that switch is magically working again, it seems.
02 23:31:00 tommost collinjc: Lucky, that.
03 12:15:00 Morasique this is the most convoluted way to make sure a path name ends in a slash i've ever seen: if ( PATH_DELIMITERS.find( *m_subdir.rbegin() ) == string::npos) m_subdir.push_back( '/' );
03 12:15:00 Morasique i started at that for about a minute before I was convinced it worked correctly
03 12:26:00 auchter laughs at people who are working today
03 12:27:00 auchter Morasique: i's not convinced by it; that may be because i have no idea what half those things mean
03 12:28:00 auchter s/i's/i'm/
03 13:11:00 octavious thought auchter slipped into lolcat for a sec
03 13:22:00 Morasique i'm considering writing a plugin that translates everything said in here to lolcats
03 13:24:00 Morasique auchter: rbegin returns an iterator starting at the end of the string, the dereference is overriden in iterators to mean return the current element, so *m_subdir.rbegin() is a long way of saying get the last character in m_subdir, the find method searches a string for the first occurrance of whatever you pass it, so PATH_DELIMITERS.find() is searching a string of path delimiters ("\\/") for the last character in m_subdir, so
03 13:24:00 Morasique it's really fairly ridiculous, i'm considering changing it but i try to limit how much i insult the engineers that work here
03 13:25:00 auchter that is convoluted. is that any more efficient/sane than just using a regex?
03 13:26:00 auchter hell, it could be done even easier than that even
03 13:27:00 Morasique i just check the last character directly when i do it, c++ doesn't have native regex support sadly
03 13:28:00 Morasique i think it's the reverse iterator that gets me most, as if strings didn't let you directly index into them or something
03 13:28:00 Morasique although c++ doesn't allow negative indexes, all languages should support that
03 13:29:00 Morasique also, i have yet to encounter a language that allows switching on multiple values at once
03 13:29:00 Morasique so painfully easy, and none of them support it
03 13:29:00 Morasique python would support it automatically, except it _has no switch statement_
03 13:31:00 Morasique now instead of working i've gotten distracted reading python's rejected enhancement proposal to add switch
03 13:33:00 Morasique guido is complaining that you need to indent too much. i'm going to hunt him down and tell him this is why other languages aren't whitespace sensitive
03 13:37:00 Morasique ....i'm baffled. i just read ~10 pages enumerating the benefits of a switch statement, and then the conclusion section is "Python is fine without a switch statement, and perhaps those who claim it would be a mistake to add one are right."
03 13:37:00 Morasique i think they wrote the conclusion first, and had somebody else write the actual proposal later and add it on
03 17:33:00 tommost Whitespace sensitivity? Python doesn't do that... http://lucumr.pocoo.org/cogitations/2008/07/01/whitespace-sensitivity/
03 17:47:00 auchter tommost: sure it does, that page just gives an example of how whitespace matters in ruby.
03 17:48:00 tommost The point is that Python is *indentation* sensitive. Exclusively.
03 17:49:00 auchter and what is used for indentation?
03 17:49:00 tommost Whitespace.
03 17:49:00 auchter anyway, i'm leaving now; we can pick this up when i get back
03 17:50:00 tommost Morasique: What's the URL of that PEP?
03 18:20:00 tommost There's a report on the News Hour about the Terre Haute airport.
03 21:52:00 Morasique tommost: http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3103/
03 21:52:00 tommost Thanks.
03 21:53:00 Morasique i'm trying to remember from my OS days, is there such thing as a maximum number of files on a partition?
03 21:53:00 Morasique i think no, but i seem to have that problem
03 21:54:00 Morasique it's ntfs
03 21:56:00 auchter Morasique: yes, there is a maximum
03 21:57:00 Morasique wow. how have i never hit it before
03 21:57:00 auchter oh, and looking at wikipedia now for ntfs makes it seem like it would be very difficult to reach that number...
03 21:57:00 Morasique hmm. what is it?
03 21:57:00 auchter 2**32 - 1
03 21:57:00 Morasique ah. that can't be it
03 21:57:00 Morasique ...i hope
03 21:57:00 auchter yeah... that would be bad
03 21:57:00 Morasique i don't know what's wrong, if i try to touch any new filename i get "operation not supported", but if i delete a file first i can touch one, and then it's broken again
03 21:57:00 Morasique i have 13gb free, so that's not it
03 22:00:00 auchter back to python flaming, i read that link, and i still come to the conclusion that forcing indentation is ridiculous
03 22:00:00 tommost Why? You do it anyway.
03 22:01:00 auchter no, in a lot of cases i don't
03 22:01:00 tommost What cases?
03 22:01:00 Morasique exactly what auchter says, many times python's indentation is too verbose
03 22:01:00 auchter switch statements are one; i don't indent the cases another level
03 22:01:00 Morasique even guido just said it, although somehow he managed to blame switch for it
03 22:01:00 tommost Nonissue—Python has no switch statement.
03 22:02:00 auchter another is with if statements occasionally, when i need something to only execute if several conditions are met
03 22:02:00 Morasique it's a non issue because they decided to not include switch at all, that's not exactly a super compromise
03 22:02:00 tommost auchter: I'm not sure what you mean. Example?
03 22:02:00 tommost Morasique: I'm okay with it.
03 22:03:00 Morasique tommost: well, obviously you hate yourself :)
03 22:03:00 Morasique apparently cifs can't deal with ntfs junction points. fun
03 22:03:00 tommost Morasique: Since any Python switch statement wouldn't have included fall-through behavior, I don't see the point of including one.
03 22:03:00 tommost That's the only case where I find switch statements terribly useful.
03 22:03:00 auchter tommost: http://freya.phire.org/files/ex.txt
03 22:04:00 tommost That's quite odd.
03 22:04:00 tommost What's wrong with &&?
03 22:04:00 auchter it's easier to read, and it's easier to comment out just one of the conditions
03 22:04:00 tommost I suppose, but it's still horrible.
03 22:05:00 auchter forcing me to indent is horrible
03 22:05:00 tommost That's exactly the sort of thing that forced indentation is *supposed* to prevent.
03 22:08:00 Morasique i use switch statements anytime i'm doing the pattern they describe in the PEP, where i'm doing if (x == ?? ) many times with different right hand sides, it's more compact, i shouldn't have to keep typing the if part over and over
03 22:08:00 tommost When do you do this? I seldom find myself doing it.
03 22:09:00 Morasique i just said, anytime i'm changing control flow based on the value of a variable, which is pretty much all the time
03 22:09:00 Morasique case closed: http://www.augustana.ab.ca/~mohrj/courses/common/csc370/lecture_notes/lisp3.html
03 22:09:00 Morasique lisp has spoken
03 22:10:00 tommost Lisp syntax != Python syntax
03 22:11:00 Morasique clearly, and python can feel free to implement it however it likes, but the feature itself should still exist. i'm about 90% sure guido didn't include it because he didn't like the indenting, and that's a pretty poor reason to leave the feature out
03 22:12:00 tommost I get the impression it was because very few people cared.
03 22:13:00 Morasique everytime i forget and google for python+switch trying to remember how to do it, i find that people care
03 22:13:00 tommost Besides, that hack you showed us before is pretty dang similar to the proposed syntax.
03 22:13:00 Morasique it would take 30 seconds to implement, they don't even have to include the optimizations, they can generate identical bytecode to the repeated if conditions if they want to
03 22:14:00 tommost It would introduce two reserved words.
03 22:14:00 tommost They really don't like that.
03 22:14:00 Morasique ah. well, it is expensive, you have to buy reserved words from the government and they tax the hell out of them
03 22:14:00 tommost It would involve __future__. PITA.
03 22:15:00 Morasique i can live with __future__, i do in virtually every script to get with_statement
03 22:16:00 tommost Yeah, me too.
03 22:16:00 tommost absolute_import is good, too.
03 22:17:00 Morasique what's that?
03 22:17:00 Morasique import into every script?
03 22:19:00 tommost If you're in a package foo.bar and there are modules foo.bar.baz and foo.bar.zap, it makes it so that you can't import zap from baz with "import zap"—you have to use "import foo.bar.zap".
03 22:19:00 Morasique oh, i see, i thought you were telling me a way to get around needing to import with_statement in every script
03 22:20:00 tommost Oh, no.
03 22:20:00 tommost There's a solution to that: 2.6a.
03 22:24:00 auchter another thing to hate about python: crazy versions all over the place
03 22:26:00 tommost Huh?
03 22:26:00 tommost You hate that the language improves?
03 22:27:00 auchter no, improvements are great (c89, c99), but not releases all over the place where stuff keeps changing
03 22:29:00 tommost "all over the place"?
03 22:30:00 Morasique yes. like your mom. SNAP!
03 22:33:00 auchter yeah, and at least lisp has sane syntax
03 22:33:00 tommost What's crazy about Python's syntax?
03 22:33:00 tommost Or are we still talking about my mom?
03 22:34:00 Morasique very 15 minutes ago of you auchter :)
03 22:34:00 Morasique oh, we're always talking about your mom. you just aren't always aware of it
03 22:34:00 Morasique winks at luglog knowingly
03 22:52:00 tommost I'm having fun writing my own wiki.
03 22:53:00 Morasique that sounds entertaining
03 22:53:00 tommost Finally, freedom from MediaWiki's URL stupidity. And its status code stupidity. And its HTML stupidity. And so on.\
03 22:59:00 Morasique http://bugday.gentoo.org/
03 23:01:00 tommost Keeping revisions of everything is a PITA.
03 23:02:00 tommost It's not so bad when you're just versioning pages, but then you have images, which have their own sort of metadata.
03 23:02:00 tommost And you want that to be versioned, too.
03 23:02:00 Morasique you don't just diff it? i think mediawiki stores the diffs and has a latest copy they update as needed
03 23:02:00 tommost And then there are videos.
03 23:02:00 Morasique oh, i see
03 23:02:00 tommost I was just going to keep a new copy of the text.
03 23:03:00 Morasique oh. i guess that works for small things
03 23:03:00 tommost Yeah, I'm not terribly worried about storage space.
03 23:03:00 tommost I just don't like the duplication of having special revision tracking for images, videos, other media, etc.
03 23:05:00 auchter <subliminal>venti</subliminal>
03 23:05:00 tommost Yeah, just storing it all in SVN or git is also tempting, but likely ultimately more trouble.
03 23:06:00 tommost Since this is Python I don't have to worry about types when doing polymorphism, which simplifies things.
03 23:08:00 tommost I think that I may just make images immutable from the wiki interface.
03 23:09:00 Morasique you could just not offer revision tracking
03 23:09:00 Morasique i don't think mediawiki does
03 23:09:00 Morasique it does stores the entire file everytime and lists the history
03 23:10:00 tommost It lets you go through the history and diff it and everything.
03 23:10:00 tommost How is that not revision tracking?
03 23:10:00 Morasique it lets you diff pictures?
03 23:10:00 tommost Oh, no.
03 23:11:00 tommost But I expect that you can diff the special image pages; they act more or less like regular wiki pages.
03 23:12:00 Morasique you mean stuff in the Image namespace? you can diff that, but it's just the description text, it doesn't include the image
03 23:12:00 tommost Yeah, I was talking about the description text.
03 23:12:00 tommost More importantly, I'm including a required field for alt text (something MediaWiki sucks at).
03 23:12:00 Morasique ah. well that shouldn't be hard then, it would be the same mechanism as a normal page, like you said. it would just have an image relationed to it somewhere
03 23:13:00 tommost Well, I don't really want special image pages.
03 23:13:00 Morasique ah. i see
03 23:14:00 tommost I can see how they make sense, but I'd need to do something like MediaWiki's namespaces to implement that.
03 23:14:00 tommost I'm deliberately leaving out namespaces in favor of making it easy to have multiple wikis.
03 23:15:00 tommost It will work similarly, except with cleaner URLs and without "UGVProject:" starting every page title.
03 23:16:00 tommost So yeah, if I just make the alt text immutable and require people to reupload the image to change it it should simplify things significantly.
03 23:17:00 tommost On the other hand, I suspect that most people will provide crappy alt text, and I'll end up needing to correct it. Which would suck if its immutable.
03 23:18:00 tommost *it's
03 23:21:00 tommost I have an idea. GenericForeignKey FTW!
03 23:30:00 tommost Better idea: model inheritance. Django rocks.
04 12:14:00 Morasique the internet worries me: http://www.reddit.com/info/6q81t/comments/c04kzc1
04 13:06:00 auchter reddit != the internet
04 13:11:00 auchter though i'm sure there are worse places
04 13:23:00 Morasique well, obviously
04 13:23:00 Morasique aol = the internet
04 13:23:00 Morasique glares at parents
04 15:03:00 octavious what a great way to spend the fourth...watching Team America
04 15:34:00 auchter what a great way to spend the fourth: on irc overlooking lake huron
04 15:34:00 auchter i actually don't know which one is geekier
04 15:36:00 Morasique auchter: just start watching team america and you win
04 15:37:00 Morasique wow. my ipaq just made a very scary sound when i tried to flash a new bootloader
04 15:37:00 Morasique i think it was screaming in pain
04 15:37:00 auchter ooh, install linux on it
04 15:37:00 Morasique i'm trying to, it's not working well :)
04 15:37:00 auchter well, install plan9 then
04 15:38:00 Morasique i can't flash a new bootloader, without that i'm not installing anything
04 15:38:00 Morasique my ipaq is ancient, i don't think any of the tools i've found support it
04 15:38:00 auchter what model?
04 15:41:00 Morasique 1900
04 15:41:00 Morasique it looks identical to the 1910 and 1915, so i've been trying to use things made for those, but it hasn't been working
04 15:41:00 auchter ah, i see. i've got a 3635 that i haven't powered on in years, and is known to be supported by plan 9
04 15:42:00 Morasique i never use mine, so i figured i'd try to get linux on it so it would at least be useful
04 15:42:00 auchter yeah, i think i tried with mine, but i didn't have a serial cable so things were difficult (this was many years ago)
04 15:43:00 auchter mine doesn't have built-in wireless, and the CF sleve makes it bloody huge, so i never used it much
04 15:44:00 Morasique mine doesn't either, i have a cf wireless thing somewhere but it's not very good
04 15:45:00 Morasique s/cf/sd/
04 16:21:00 Morasique text interface people might like this: http://www.beckingham.net/task.html
04 16:29:00 tommost Morasique: Awesome.
04 16:30:00 Morasique i think i still prefer org-mode, but i might try it
04 16:30:00 tommost org mode?
04 16:30:00 Morasique emacs
04 16:31:00 tommost Oh.
04 16:31:00 Morasique it's awesome, and you know it
04 16:31:00 tommost It is.
04 16:32:00 tommost If only certain attributes weren't so crappy.
04 16:32:00 Morasique gasps
04 16:32:00 Morasique the only thing i don't like is it won't let me tag plain lists, that annoys me
04 16:39:00 tommost task needs better date specifications.
04 16:39:00 tommost You should be able to type "tomorrow".
04 16:43:00 Morasique oh. i don't use the agenda, so i don't particularly care :)
04 16:44:00 Morasique i put dates after some tasks in <>, but that's it
04 16:44:00 Morasique you should learn elisp and fix it
04 16:45:00 tommost I was talking about the program you linked to, actually.
04 16:45:00 Morasique oh, i thought we were talking about org mode. i only skimmed that todo thing, it seemed too verbose
04 16:45:00 Morasique there might be shortcuts though
04 16:46:00 tommost alias
04 16:48:00 Morasique ah, cool
04 23:14:00 Blazeix Morasique: You've been running OO.org 3, right? What do you think of it?
05 16:48:00 Morasique Blazeix: it's good, it fixed a couple of things that really annoyed me about Oo 2.4, but it's been so long I can't remember any except the thing with notes in writer, it shows them in the right margin like Word does. I haven't had any problems with it like crashing or anything
05 20:01:00 octavious white/black russians tonight? hows that sound
05 20:03:00 tommost Huh?
05 20:20:00 octavious chosen drink for tonight
05 20:21:00 tommost Oh. Don't forget the _drunk suffix once it becomes necessary. ;)
05 22:36:00 Morasique gah! my beautiful uptime
05 22:42:00 auchter yeah, i've begun to forget about uptime, considering how random people seem to like to remove hardware and upgrade the kernels on this machine
05 22:42:00 auchter glares at tommost and andy753421
05 22:46:00 Morasique well, my desktop decided randomly to stop what it was doing and no longer respond
05 22:46:00 Morasique glares at tommost and andy753421
05 22:48:00 tommost stares back defiantly
05 22:48:00 tommost andy753421: Pssst! Back me up here.
05 22:55:00 Morasique tommost: he's too busy breaking my desktop
05 22:55:00 Morasique and removing hardware from auchter's machine
05 23:07:00 rr72 GAH! 55 days
05 23:07:00 rr72 or 54
05 23:07:00 rr72 depends how you count
05 23:08:00 tommost What, you too?
05 23:08:00 Morasique i usually do it in decimal, but it's a personal choice
05 23:09:00 tommost Really, the base you count in makes no difference whatsoever. Personally, I prefer base 1/32—it makes things sound much larger.
05 23:09:00 Morasique i find myself strangely looking forward to laptop orientation, it lets me conclude that the freshman class is dumb that much faster, i don't need to wait till classes start
05 23:10:00 Morasique glares at tommost
05 23:10:00 auchter i get to inevitably be surrounded by freshmen in one of my classes (german 1)
05 23:10:00 tommost Morasique: You're working laptop orientation?
05 23:10:00 Morasique i always do, i'm on campus early and i have nothing else to do
05 23:10:00 Morasique and i get to see the new laptops
05 23:11:00 tommost You should do an installfest in your session.
05 23:11:00 auchter oohh
05 23:11:00 tommost Distribute Ubuntu CDs.
05 23:11:00 tommost (And Gentoo.)
05 23:11:00 tommost ;)_
05 23:11:00 Morasique :D that's actually a fairly great idea
05 23:11:00 Morasique they leave us alone with the machines, i could slip one in surreptitiously
05 23:12:00 Morasique i might even visit neighboring rooms, to allay suspicion if they notice
05 23:12:00 tommost Good idea.
05 23:12:00 Morasique the ultimate goal would be to get linux installed on every machine, but that could be trickier
05 23:13:00 auchter we need ubiquitous email encryption, first
05 23:14:00 auchter using s/mime actually looks like the best way to accomplish it, too
05 23:14:00 auchter with people's public keys stored in rose's ldap server
05 23:14:00 Morasique ubiquitous as in all of rose or all of the world
05 23:14:00 auchter rose
05 23:14:00 Morasique ah. that should be doable
05 23:14:00 Morasique it should just be part of orientation to generate a key and upload it
05 23:14:00 Morasique it would take 30 seconds
05 23:14:00 auchter yes, it would
05 23:14:00 tommost Yeah.
05 23:15:00 auchter the problem of people not losing their private keys is still an issue
05 23:15:00 auchter as i really doubt people take care of their data
05 23:15:00 Morasique well, they could void the old one and just upload a new one
05 23:15:00 tommost Could we set it up so that that's stored in LDAP too? Encrypted based on their password?
05 23:15:00 auchter i can't think of a secure way of doing that.
05 23:16:00 auchter Morasique: then they can't read any of their old emails...
05 23:16:00 Morasique oh, i read that as e-mail signing, not e-mail encryption
05 23:16:00 Morasique yeah, that would be bad
05 23:17:00 auchter yeah, people are irresponsible, which is an issue...
05 23:17:00 auchter actually, i'm wondering how lotus notes handles that... (all notes emails are automatically encrypted...)
05 23:18:00 tommost Actually, IAIT should really set everyone up with full disk encryption on the first day.
05 23:19:00 Morasique i still don't have full disk encryption, it scares me
05 23:19:00 tommost Same here.
05 23:19:00 tommost Actually, I still don't have a real backup solution. That scares me more.
05 23:19:00 auchter i have my home drive encrypted, but nothing else
05 23:20:00 Morasique i have some externals encrypted, but nothing on my main drive
05 23:20:00 tommost I tried to do encfs on my home dir once, but I gave up.
05 23:20:00 Morasique what's rr72's real name? i'm going to find him during laptop orientation :)
05 23:20:00 tommost I was much newer to Linux then, though.
05 23:20:00 auchter i'm using truecrypt, personally
05 23:20:00 auchter encfs has some security issues
05 23:21:00 Morasique i use truecrypt too
05 23:21:00 tommost auchter: What, specifically?
05 23:21:00 rr72 ni
05 23:21:00 auchter the number/presence/sizes of your files is visible
05 23:21:00 tommost I am already using it for the directory that I store all of my passwords in.
05 23:22:00 tommost auchter: Yeah, I suppose.
05 23:22:00 tommost rr72: Are you a knight?
05 23:23:00 rr72 ni == no idea
05 23:23:00 auchter these crazy acronyms need to stop
05 23:23:00 tommost Indeed.
05 23:28:00 tommost How easy is TrueCrypt to set up?
05 23:31:00 Morasique it's really simple
05 23:32:00 tommost It works by creating an encrypted volume, doesn't it?
05 23:33:00 Morasique yeah, you can encrypt a whole partition or make a volume that you mount
05 23:33:00 tommost auchter: How do you have it set up on your laptop? I know you mount something.
05 23:34:00 auchter i created a truecrypt volume as a file
05 23:34:00 auchter then i mount that file to ~
05 23:41:00 tommost I'm guessing that that wouldn't work so nicely for me, since I like having X start automatically.
05 23:44:00 auchter there's probably a way to do it
05 23:45:00 tommost Doubtless it can be done via pam.
05 23:46:00 tommost Though then you loose some of the nice "here's my laptop, Mr. TSA inspector" deny-ability.
05 23:47:00 Morasique you don't have to do your home directory, you could do other directories
05 23:47:00 auchter i'm pretty convinced that the encryption's unnecessary in that case; just seeing the text login prompt is probably enough to confuse them
05 23:48:00 auchter i encrypt my home drive mainly in case i lose my laptop, or in the case the TSA deems it necessary to make a backup i suppose
05 23:48:00 tommost I'd like to be able to give them something that looks sort of like what they expect a computer to look like.
05 23:48:00 auchter i don't cater to thugs
05 23:49:00 Morasique "bomb-01 login:" might confuse them
05 23:49:00 auchter i would probably also just ship my hard drive next time i fly; or even just check the hard drive, actually...
05 23:50:00 tommost Yeah, except for the whole issue of lost luggage.
05 23:50:00 auchter oh. right. well, i suppose shipping it is the best option
05 23:50:00 tommost You could probably do it as a carryon.
05 23:51:00 auchter hm?
05 23:51:00 tommost If you put another drive into your laptop...
05 23:52:00 auchter i'd just have a livecd in my laptop (as a carry-on) and ship the hard drive
05 23:52:00 auchter pretty much the same way i treat my laptop when i give it to IAIT
05 23:52:00 tommost Hehe.
05 23:53:00 tommost I'm not sure who should be insulted, IAIT or the TSA.
05 23:53:00 auchter IAIT provides a very useful service to me: fixing hardware problems with my laptops
05 23:53:00 tommost Indeed.
05 23:53:00 auchter the TSA provides no such service. ergo, the TSA should be insulted
05 23:54:00 tommost No, IAIT should be insulted. Correct logic, wrong conclusion.
05 23:55:00 auchter no, i just prefer to insult the TSA whenever i can, logic be damned
05 23:55:00 tommost Ah. I can accept that.
05 23:55:00 Morasique do they actually make you boot your laptop? i don't fly
05 23:56:00 auchter yes (though the last time i flew i didn't bring a laptop)
05 23:56:00 tommost There was just a ruling that says they can, IIRC.
05 23:56:00 Morasique what does "boot" entail? what do they make you do?
05 23:56:00 auchter the previous few times i had to power my laptop on
05 23:57:00 auchter usually they're interested in seeing that the device actually turns on
05 23:57:00 tommost Ah. I can understand how they would think that that makes sense.
05 23:57:00 Morasique why all the anti-TSA home partition encryption then?
05 23:57:00 auchter as i said, i encrypt my home drive incase my laptop gets stolen
05 23:58:00 tommost They can do a full search at the border, too.
05 23:58:00 auchter yeah, that's customs though; completely different situation
06 00:01:00 tommost Worse?
06 00:01:00 auchter well, i'm much less opposed to customs than i am to the TSA
06 00:03:00 tommost Yeah, I suppose that customs has a reason to exist.
06 00:20:00 octavious_drunk tommost: there we go.
06 00:21:00 tommost That took a long time
06 00:21:00 octavious_drunk haha
06 00:21:00 tommost Somehow, I expected more of your powers of inebriation.
06 00:21:00 octavious_drunk lets just say i drink a lot, and have quite a tolerance
06 00:37:00 Morasique octavious_drunk: there are impressionable incoming freshman in here, you're a terrible RA
06 01:38:00 octavious_drunk Morasique: you are correct. i am a terrible RA. :)
06 02:42:00 tommost Fucking Firefox!
06 02:42:00 tommost Stop crashing!
06 02:42:00 tommost Oooo... having launched it from a terminal, I see that it segfaulted.
06 02:42:00 tommost Contrats, Mozilla.
06 02:54:00 Morasique tommost: i'll be excited when you figure out why it segfaults, preferably with an easy fix to make it stop
06 02:55:00 tommost I noticed a lot of messages from GCJ, so I've disabled that in a vain hope that it's that, and not Totem or Flash.
06 02:55:00 tommost I don't really see why GCJ should be doing anything, since I'm not on any pages with Java applets.
06 02:56:00 Morasique i have no idea what GCJ is
06 02:56:00 Morasique apparently something java related
06 02:57:00 tommost GNU Java.
06 03:07:00 Mishtal for any who may be interested. i recently found a package that adds bittorrent support to aptitude and apt-get in Ubuntu. ive done brief testing and can attest that it seems to work just fine. it might be useful come october http://debtorrent.alioth.debian.org/
06 03:20:00 tommost Cool.
06 03:20:00 Mishtal so far ive used it to install 20 packages or so
06 03:20:00 Mishtal all of them seem to work fine
06 03:21:00 Mishtal one problem is that it has a very low number of peers, at the moment. though that might be because i only just configured it
06 03:21:00 Mishtal it does revert to http, if it cant get peers
06 03:21:00 Mishtal so, no harm no foul, i think.
06 03:23:00 Mishtal it may be useful if any lug ubuntu users installed this. it may make upgrading to ibex come october go a lot quicker.
06 13:14:00 auchter woo, gentoo 2008.0 is out
06 13:14:00 auchter really puts ubuntu's codenames to shame, too: "It's got what plants crave"
06 13:16:00 octavious everyone update their profile
06 13:17:00 auchter i was going to, but this gives me the much needed excuse to completely redo my laptop...
06 13:18:00 octavious heh, i just did it a month ago
06 15:43:00 Morasique http://en.tiraecol.net/modules/comic/cache/images/tiraecol_en-2.png
06 16:20:00 tommost Morasique: Hehehe.
06 16:20:00 tommost I'm happy to report that Firefox did not go crash in the night.
06 16:20:00 tommost We're off to a good start.
06 16:54:00 Morasique why does tab completion always make lists of "obscure linux tips"?
06 16:55:00 Blazeix What? Linux has tab completion?
06 16:56:00 Blazeix That would have made my life easier.
06 16:56:00 tommost Yup. It's been in the kernel since 2.3.2.
06 16:56:00 Morasique yeah, i was going to mention it in my shell tricks presentation, but i forgot
06 16:57:00 Morasique it makes using DOS a living hell, DOS tab completion is the worst thing ever designed
06 17:09:00 octavious :\ i have been trying to get the nvidia drivers to output a 720p signal for a few hours now...
06 17:13:00 tommost I have been writing a Markdown parser since Friday.
06 17:13:00 tommost There is precisely one paragraph of well-definedness in the specification.
06 17:40:00 Morasique tommost: learn how the language works and write an amazing page on the LUG wiki explaining it in thorough detail. People will find the page, and flock to Rose to be in RHLUG. Profit
06 17:48:00 tommost Better idea: write markdown3, a superior Python Markdown library, and make it available under a liberal license, thus ensuring its use throughout the world. Put it on my resume. Profit.
06 17:49:00 tommost Yes, there are two previous Python Markdown implementations. And yes, I don't like either one.
06 17:55:00 Morasique i'm running firefox from a shell, it outputs "Warning: more than one line!
06 17:55:00 Morasique " a lot
06 17:56:00 tommost Mine always whines about GTK widgets, but that's npviewer.bin, apparently.
06 18:00:00 tommost I think that it's time to make this module a package. I now have two completely different types of "processor".
06 20:02:00 tommost I take back my claim that there is one part of the markdown specification that is well defined.
06 20:02:00 tommost I just wrote this abomination: http://dpaste.com/61043/
06 20:02:00 tommost I'm going to have to write unit test for a *fucking regular expression*!
06 20:03:00 tommost *tests
06 20:03:00 tommost (One could never be sufficient.)
06 20:04:00 tommost Oh, and all of that can repeat until there is a blank line.
06 20:08:00 tommost John Gruber was like, "delimiting a title with quotation marks is too easy to parse—let's allow parenthesis, too!".
06 20:15:00 tommost OHOH, Gruber does find some funny things when he's busy hacking the internets: http://my.spill.com/profiles/blog/show?id=947994%3ABlogPost%3A355506
06 20:20:00 Morasique tommost: that regular expression is fairly disturbing
06 20:21:00 tommost Indeed. I can't wait to see if it works.
06 20:22:00 tommost And by "can't wait" I mean "dread".
06 23:55:00 tommost Whee! All of my test cases are passing.
07 00:19:00 Morasique conclusion: your test cases are wrong
07 02:00:00 tommost :'(
07 10:07:00 Morasique A real parser, on the other hand, looks only at a stream of vocabulary symbols (tokens); they generally ignore whitespace unless it is part of the vocabulary such as in Python (tabs count -- ick)
07 10:07:00 Morasique glares at tommost
07 10:08:00 Morasique (pretend there were quotes around that)
07 10:31:00 auchter yeah, no one likes python; just look at that excerpt of tommost's python markdown parser compared to the official one in perl
07 12:04:00 Morasique "error C2064: term does not evaluate to a function taking -22 arguments"
07 12:04:00 Morasique hmm
07 12:36:00 tommost auchter: I'm trying to do something rather different.
07 12:37:00 tommost There's already a Python Markdown converter that's basically a transcription of the Perl one—it's called markdown2.
07 12:39:00 tommost I'm trying to build it in such a way that I can do templates and wiki links.
07 12:44:00 tommost Also, I generate a BeautifulSoup tree that I then sanitize as I serialize it to HTML.
07 12:46:00 tommost Oh, and looking at Markdown.pl, it appears that Gruber lies in his documentation: he makes no mention of inline link syntax like [this](<url>).
07 14:31:00 Morasique tommost: is that markdown? reddit uses that syntax, maybe they use markdown and i never noticed
07 15:14:00 Morasique i'm using a program that can generate source code for C or python, but I have to use the C output. I've never been more jealous of python
07 15:52:00 andy753421 sort+column+vim > excel
07 16:08:00 Morasique i was reading that as you piping the output into excel, i was totally confused why you would be doing that
07 17:15:00 andy753421 The power just shut off to our building a few minutes ago (go laptops!)
07 17:16:00 andy753421 If i had a microphone I think I would record the 20 or so UPS's that are beeping and sent it to auchter, i think he would enjoy it.
07 17:22:00 andy753421 speaking of which, do they make surround sound (or even stereo) microphones?
07 17:30:00 auchter andy753421: better than stereo, binaural: http://www.neumann.com/?lang=en&id=current_microphones&cid=ku100_description
07 17:34:00 auchter http://www.holophonic.ch/archivio/testaudio/Cereni%20-%20Holophonic.mp3 a good demonstration, listen with headphones and your head completely still
07 17:35:00 andy753421 auchter: I'll try listening to that when I get back to my room, wouldn't that work best with ear plugs?
07 17:36:00 auchter you mean in-ear monitors? i don't think it's really any better with them
07 17:38:00 andy753421 I was thinking the sound should be replayed from the same place that it was recorded
07 17:38:00 andy753421 otherwise when it moves from the headphones to your ear drum it would get distorted
07 17:38:00 andy753421 but that might not matter, i don't really know
07 17:39:00 auchter yeah, that's a good point actually. however, my IEMs don't compare to my actual headphones in terms of quality
07 18:51:00 octavious bah. the george foreman is broken
07 18:51:00 octavious what am i going to do?
07 18:53:00 octavious get drunk.
07 19:04:00 Morasique i don't think the george foreman had much to do with that :)
07 19:05:00 Morasique if(grill.isBroken()) {getDrunk();} else {getDrunk();}
07 19:07:00 auchter or you could use a wok, which is what i just used to cook a steak
07 19:08:00 auchter i really need to buy an actual frying pan...
07 19:10:00 tommost I bought an actual frying pan. But it rusted, and I don't have a brush to clean the rust off with. Now I just use my wok. :(
07 19:12:00 auchter ah, cast iron?
07 19:12:00 tommost Yeah.
07 19:12:00 tommost It'll be utterly superior once I get it properly cured.
07 19:14:00 auchter indeed, cast iron is great
07 20:42:00 Blazeix So, I'm thinking about retrying a tiling WM
07 20:43:00 Blazeix Probably the 'awesome' wm
07 20:43:00 Blazeix mainly because their tag line is: "This gonna be LEGEN... wait for it... DARY!"
07 20:44:00 Blazeix Also, they have a pretty layout. What I"m learning from this is that I'm easily swayed by shiny things.
07 20:44:00 Blazeix s/layout/website/
07 20:47:00 auchter Blazeix: http://www.suckless.org/wiki/dwm come to the dark side
07 20:47:00 Blazeix hmm. Decisions... They also have a nice website.
07 20:47:00 Blazeix I believe dwm was what I tried earlier this year.
07 20:48:00 Blazeix I'll probably end up installing 3 or 4 tiling wms
07 20:48:00 auchter the website is also using rc(1), which makes it even cooler than awesome's website
07 20:49:00 Blazeix what is rc(1)?
07 20:49:00 auchter http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/rc
07 20:53:00 auchter octavious_drunk: this seems to be a common occurrence nowadays
07 21:56:00 povilusr-laptop anyone know how to how to change scrren res in xubuntu 8.04
07 22:02:00 auchter povilusr-laptop: /etc/X11/xorg.conf in the Screen section
07 22:03:00 Blazeix On our laptops you can use nvidia-settings as well.
07 22:03:00 Blazeix If you're running the nvidia driver
07 22:05:00 povilusr_kaaba yeah i prefer not to edit xorg manualy, it never works for me
07 22:08:00 povilusr_kaaba thanx blazix thats ausome
07 22:49:00 Morasique wow. there was not one word spelled correctly in that
07 22:53:00 auchter i think he's stopped trying
07 23:00:00 Morasique octavious: way to stop drinking
07 23:00:00 Morasique ...quitter
07 23:10:00 Morasique my friend just heard the sudo make me a sandwich quote for the first time
07 23:10:00 Morasique i thought everyone in the world had heard that
07 23:13:00 auchter http://robots.stanford.edu/papers/thrun.stanley05.pdf just skimmed this paper (too braindead now to read it), probably a good read for robotics
07 23:13:00 auchter particular the machine vision section, though i don't know how much detail it goes into
07 23:14:00 auchter anyway, i'm now asleep
07 23:14:00 andy753421 (waiting for it to download..)
07 23:14:00 andy753421 judging from the URL, I think we may have read that during AI last year
07 23:17:00 octavious Morasique: figure it was about time. still gotta work tomorrow
07 23:18:00 Morasique you could drink at work. multi-tasking
07 23:18:00 octavious eh, some do. i work next to a fridge full of alcohol
07 23:21:00 Morasique is lug.phire.org incredibly slow for everyone else?
07 23:23:00 Morasique i think at some point we were talking about if reiser was guilty or not: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/07/07/BAN011LDR8.DTL
08 00:03:00 andy753421 argh, my battery is overheating again, and this is already a replaced one
08 00:05:00 Morasique do they get replaced for free?
08 00:06:00 andy753421 Morasique: mine did, because it got recalled
08 00:12:00 Blazeix about the sudo comment, did you guys see this recent little gamers comic? http://www.little-gamers.com/2008/05/30/coding-logic/
08 00:12:00 Blazeix its a major rip off of xkcd
08 00:12:00 Blazeix It seems most webcomic writers would know enough not to do that.
08 00:14:00 Morasique wow
08 00:14:00 Morasique i didn't realize how unfunny that joke could be until i saw that
08 00:29:00 andy753421 someone needs to make a 2d version of sed so that I can match vertical patterns
08 10:11:00 Morasique i've been trying to capture the output of a windows process for the last 2 hours, i can't believe how hard this is
08 10:11:00 Morasique i've been taking "runSomething > output" for granted
08 10:11:00 Morasique even better: output=`runSomething`
08 10:15:00 andy753421 I thought windows let you use `foo > output'?
08 11:37:00 Morasique andy753421: it does from the command line, but it's not working for the CreateProcess API call
08 11:37:00 Morasique i really needed the output in the program anyway, not in a file, but i would've settled for the latter if > worked
08 12:44:00 Morasique microsoft has taken hungarian notation to a new level of hell in their api
08 12:45:00 andy753421 I would imagine so, after all it was invented by MS's chief architect..
08 12:51:00 Morasique i can live with semantic hints, i hate when people put the variable's type in the name, that's completely illogical. you could script your editor to check the variable's type and display a hungarian prefix if you like it that way, there's no reason to hardcode it
08 12:52:00 andy753421 not if you use `void *' in function pointers :P
08 12:53:00 Morasique don't get me started, i spent all yesterday wading through ANTLR's void pointers, it uses nothing else
08 12:54:00 Morasique and it uses function pointers for everything, to maximize my pain
08 13:43:00 Morasique i'm looking at the section of the windows API on paths. turns out it's about paths in the drawing sense. i imagine 100% of the people that have ended up on this page were not looking for drawing information
08 14:12:00 Morasique i assume somewhere there's a definition of what characters URLs are allowed to contain, so why is virtually every implementation of finding URLs in plain text broken?
08 14:13:00 Morasique the visual studio one doesn't even work, it can't handle parentheses. microsoft engineers couldn't take 30 seconds to google "characters allowed in urls"?
08 14:14:00 andy753421 well, does it allow http://google.com?
08 14:16:00 Morasique ironically, the only URLs i've ever seen with parenthesis are microsoft URLs, so you'd think they'd be aware of it
08 14:16:00 andy753421 wikipedia has them too
08 17:24:00 tommost Yeah, it's actually kinda difficult to decide what to do with parenthesis.
08 17:24:00 tommost Mainly because people use them as delimiters, ignoring the fact that <> are the official delimiter characters.
08 18:47:00 tommost This room seems better populated than it has been recently.
08 18:47:00 tommost Of course, half of it is povilusr.
08 18:47:00 Morasique O(n log n) + O(n) is still O(n log n) right? I suck at complexity stuff
08 18:47:00 tommost Morasique: Yeah.
08 18:48:00 Morasique ok, thanks. i was about to deop tommost_aorist, but i'll let it go since you answered my question
08 18:49:00 tommost Why do you hate him so? :'(
08 18:50:00 tommost He's useful when my laptop crashes due to ATI being crappy.
08 18:50:00 Morasique why don't you just run in a screen session on that machine?
08 18:50:00 tommost povilusr-laptop: Your nick is not logview compliant. s/-/_/
08 18:51:00 tommost Because I need proportional fonts for IMing.
08 18:51:00 povilusr_kaaba rgr thanx
08 18:51:00 Morasique his nick was here first, i think what you mean is logview is not povilusr-laptop compliant :)
08 18:51:00 tommost logview simply followed the most common convention.
08 18:52:00 povilusr_kaaba no it was an underscore probably
08 18:52:00 povilusr_kaaba i just reinstalled xubuntu
08 18:52:00 tommost Yeah, even povilusr's other nicks disagree with his laptop.
08 18:52:00 povilusr_kaaba bob bullshit baskitball camp sucks ass
08 18:52:00 tommost I hope that you typed that into the wrong window.
08 18:52:00 povilusr_kaaba we just got kicked out of the src
08 18:53:00 tommost kaaba is a mobile device?
08 18:53:00 povilusr-laptop no
08 18:54:00 povilusr_laptop we came back
08 18:55:00 Morasique tommost: i can't picture any window that would be the right window for that
08 18:55:00 povilusr_kaaba its microatc cube case
08 18:55:00 povilusr_kaaba atx*
08 18:56:00 tommost Ah.
08 18:58:00 tommost Do you just have computers littered about you apartment?
08 18:58:00 povilusr_kaaba yeah
08 18:58:00 tommost nods
08 18:58:00 povilusr_kaaba i have 4 i use on a regular basis at the same time 2 for eve and one for tv
08 18:58:00 povilusr_kaaba soon to be 5: woot eeepc901
08 18:58:00 tommost Wait... two for Eve?
08 18:58:00 povilusr_kaaba yeah, two accounts
08 18:59:00 tommost Are you abidextrous?
08 19:00:00 povilusr_kaaba no its a slow ish game
08 19:00:00 tommost So you need two accounts to keep yourself occupied, or to gain some sort of advantage?
08 19:00:00 povilusr_kaaba yeah make more money ingame by more than 2x
08 19:01:00 Morasique that's so very sad
08 19:01:00 Morasique do you kvm them or do you just roll between machines?
08 19:01:00 povilusr_kaaba no, l desk
08 19:01:00 povilusr_kaaba er L deks
08 19:02:00 povilusr_kaaba i spin :)
08 19:06:00 auchter i've got a u-desk at home, it's absolutely glorious
08 19:06:00 tommost Oooo... U-desk + 4 monitors...
08 19:07:00 tommost weeps for joy
08 19:08:00 auchter this can fit a few more than four monitors... i wonder if i have a picture of it anywhere
08 19:08:00 tommost Oh, povilusr_*: I need Ethernet cables for my Sun Rays.
08 19:09:00 auchter haha, how are those going?
08 19:09:00 tommost Say, four of ~20 ft each.
08 19:09:00 povilusr_kaaba rgr, you want me to bring to ventures?
08 19:09:00 tommost I don't have enough Ethernet cables to plug them in.
08 19:09:00 tommost Sure.
08 19:09:00 povilusr_kaaba kk
08 19:09:00 povilusr_kaaba remind me again in a few hours or at work tomarro but il try to bring them to ventures tomaro
08 19:10:00 tommost Okay.
08 19:10:00 povilusr_kaaba im going for food or id do it now
08 19:18:00 tommost Does anyone know of a Firefox plugin that would let me make Flash movies get handled by an external app?
08 19:18:00 tommost E.g., I click on a play button inside the flash movie box and it pops up in a new window.
08 19:19:00 tommost Now that I have disabled GCJ Firefox doesn't seem to be crashing often enough to keep Flash player in a (partially) working state.
08 19:29:00 auchter gah, why is it storming here?
08 19:32:00 auchter so, i think we need to have an installfest the first week of classes
08 19:32:00 tommost Sounds good.
08 19:33:00 andy753421 agreed
08 19:33:00 andy753421 when does ubuntu get released?
08 19:33:00 octavious why am i downloading kazaam
08 19:33:00 tommost octavious: Excellent question.
08 19:34:00 tommost I have no answer for you.
08 19:34:00 tommost Unless you happen to be drunk.
08 19:34:00 auchter andy753421: october, apparently
08 19:34:00 octavious nah, i am postponing drunkiness until the jazz club tonight
08 19:34:00 Morasique it's normally may and october
08 19:34:00 andy753421 somebody should complain to them :P
08 19:35:00 Morasique er. april and october
08 19:35:00 auchter oohh, jazz...
08 19:35:00 tommost I'm already pretty pleased with the regularity of their release cycle, myself.
08 19:35:00 auchter what about that first saturday sometime, the sixth
08 19:35:00 tommost A Saturday?
08 19:36:00 auchter yeah, i don't know if anyone would show up, but what else do people have to do saturday afternoon
08 19:36:00 auchter especially the first one of the year
08 19:37:00 tommost Won't there be freshman bonding activities one of those weekends?
08 19:37:00 tommost Or Rush?
08 19:37:00 auchter ah, octavious would probably know...
08 19:37:00 auchter isn't rush later than the first weekend?
08 19:37:00 octavious nope. i have no schedule yet
08 19:40:00 Morasique i think freshman orientation is over by then, or at least stuff is optional and nobody does anything anymore
08 19:41:00 auchter i think the earlier the better, people manage to bork windows installs and load up their laptops pretty quickly...
08 19:41:00 Morasique and rush technically starts with fast track, formally the day freshman arrive, so rush will be going on then but i doubt it'll be a problem
08 19:44:00 Morasique ooo. truecrypt 6 is out
08 19:45:00 auchter we should look into customizing an ubuntu cd (or maybe a post-install script of some sort) to install stuff people will want, do configurations for rose (set up afs, dfs, thunderbird, etc.)
08 19:45:00 Morasique that would be handy. does ubuntu have a thing for that?
08 19:46:00 Morasique it would be easy to script, but it would be cool if we could burn a cd that just did it
08 19:46:00 auchter https://help.ubuntu.com/community/InstallCDCustomization
08 19:46:00 auchter i think it'd be best to do it in two parts
08 19:46:00 Morasique nice
08 19:46:00 auchter customize install cd to remove tedium of the answers common to everyone
08 19:47:00 auchter then a post-install script which does the rest of the setup
08 19:47:00 tommost Cool idea.
08 19:48:00 auchter automatically configure cups, as well...
08 19:49:00 Morasique mail is another one that would be good to auto setup
08 19:49:00 Morasique what do they use, evolution?
08 19:49:00 auchter `they' being who?
08 19:49:00 Morasique the people we've done this for in the past. what do we have people use, or is it not covered during the installfest
08 19:50:00 auchter not covered, really
08 19:50:00 tommost I hope they don't use Evolution, in any case.
08 19:50:00 Morasique that seems like something people would probably care about
08 19:50:00 tommost Yeah.
08 19:50:00 Morasique well, evolution is the default ubuntu one i think
08 19:50:00 tommost It is.
08 19:50:00 tommost But everybody seems to use Thunderbird.
08 19:50:00 Morasique i imagine 99% of people don't use outlook features besides e-mail, so we could setup anything realy
08 19:50:00 andy753421 make them all use mutt
08 19:50:00 Morasique really
08 19:51:00 Morasique making them all use mutt is the beginning of a slippery slope that ends in from scratch gentoo installs :)
08 19:51:00 tommost andy753421: Give them some time to come around gradually!
08 19:51:00 Morasique i'm excited if i see a terminal window open at all
08 19:52:00 auchter i think i'm going to do an ubuntu install in a vm one day, and start looking at writing a script
08 19:52:00 auchter however, someone else should probably do that before me, because i'll likely end up getting frustrated with bash and using rc ;)
08 19:53:00 andy753421 i'll get frustrated with ubuntu and install portage
08 19:53:00 andy753421 and a real init daemon
08 19:53:00 Morasique i'll get frustrated with linux and install plan9
08 19:54:00 auchter if only native plan9 worked on my laptop...
08 19:54:00 Morasique :)
08 19:54:00 auchter but hey, we have 9vx now!
08 19:55:00 Morasique we should auto-install urban terror so i have local people to play :)
08 20:00:00 octavious oh noes? reddit down?
08 20:00:00 Morasique wow, completely down
08 20:00:00 Morasique i just got through my rss backlog ~10 minutes ago; nice of them to wait for me
08 20:01:00 auchter i blame python
08 20:02:00 andy753421 I want to make a web development framework in C.
08 20:02:00 tommost andy753421: I was thinking of rewriting my web site in D.
08 20:03:00 auchter andy753421: if string manipulation wasn't so painful in C, i'd be all for it
08 20:03:00 andy753421 auchter: i guess that might be a slight problem, but that's what the library would be for
08 20:04:00 andy753421 anyway, it'd be sweet because you'd compile the website to an executable shared library
08 20:04:00 octavious use bison/yacc for HTML parsing?
08 20:04:00 andy753421 so you could either run it and have it start it's own server, or have a parent server use it as a shared library so it could run along side other websites on the same port
08 20:05:00 andy753421 octavious: I don't think you'd really need to do any html parsing, you'd need to do more generating
08 20:06:00 tommost I was thinking more CGI/FastCGI, myself.
08 20:06:00 octavious well, i guess thats true. i have just been wanting an excuse to learn how to use it..
08 20:07:00 andy753421 tommost: yea, that'd be the easy way, but not nearly as cool
08 20:09:00 tommost Linking to it wouldn't work so well for shared hosting, because it'd all be under the same user.
08 20:09:00 andy753421 it's also be cool to make it nice an multi-threaded and distributed.. so basically, everything that Ruby on Rails fails at :)
08 20:10:00 tommost Ruby on Rails can scale... multi-threading isn't necessary for that.
08 20:11:00 andy753421 I think if you run the parent server as root you could drop privileges while executing code, that's pretty much how apache tries to do it
08 20:12:00 andy753421 tommost: what is your alternative to multi-threading?
08 20:12:00 tommost Multiple processes.
08 20:13:00 tommost Anyway, the issue is that each user's stuff needs to be executed with that user's permissions, to keep them all isolated from one another.
08 20:13:00 andy753421 so a separate process for each request?
08 20:13:00 andy753421 that would make security trivial but not quite as fast
08 20:14:00 tommost Well, with FastCGI you have a long-running process for each user. So the IPC is really the only slowdown.
08 20:15:00 tommost Frankly, if you need speed so badly that IPC is a really big deal, you're probably running Tux anyway. ;)
08 20:15:00 andy753421 true, you can swap the owner of a process while it's running though, i'm just not sure if you can swap back
08 20:15:00 tommost Or you write the thing in Erlang, which scales a heck of a lot better than anything threaded.
08 20:16:00 tommost Wouldn't the Apache process need to do that for every request?
08 20:16:00 Morasique octavious: take compilers
08 20:16:00 tommost And it couldn't serve requests for other users simultaneously when doing so.
08 20:16:00 auchter Morasique: they make it damn difficult for CPEs to take compilers...
08 20:17:00 auchter believe me, i want to.
08 20:17:00 Morasique oh yeah, i think we talked about this
08 20:17:00 tommost I think that mod_wsgi separates things between users somehow, though, so you could look into what that does.
08 20:17:00 Morasique i think curt teaches it every year, he'd probably let you take it
08 20:17:00 octavious Morasique: thought about it. but i think it might be more effort than i am willing to put in
08 20:18:00 auchter Morasique: i think some of the prereqs are rather necessary, at least that's what i've heard...
08 20:18:00 andy753421 tommost: yea, you'd have to have as many processes as you have users
08 20:18:00 tommost Yeah, and then you're just back to FastCGI anyway.
08 20:19:00 tommost A better option might be to give every user their own server and proxy to them.
08 20:19:00 tommost If you're determined to avoid IPC.
08 20:19:00 andy753421 hu?
08 20:19:00 andy753421 is confused as to how giving out different servers avoids IPC
08 20:20:00 andy753421 but anyway, the goal wouldn't to have multiple users anyway
08 20:20:00 tommost You could do it with a hardware load balancer.
08 20:21:00 tommost Of course, it doesn't make much sense to worry about performance that much in a shared hosting setting.
08 20:21:00 andy753421 um, yes, that's why it's not a shared hosting setting :P
08 20:21:00 andy753421 you somehow started thinking that what I wanted to do
08 20:21:00 tommost Yeah, I don't know how I got off on that track.
08 20:22:00 tommost Anyway, back to scaling.
08 20:22:00 tommost Threads don't scale.
08 20:23:00 andy753421 depends on how you use them
08 20:24:00 auchter 9
08 20:24:00 tommost Yeah, I'm talking about thousands of concurrent connections.
08 20:24:00 tommost You probably have something else in mind.
08 20:24:00 tommost epoll()?
08 20:25:00 andy753421 i seriously doubt that thread overhead would become a problem when rendering webpages
08 20:25:00 andy753421 one thread per request would be just fine
08 20:26:00 tommost Yeah.
08 20:26:00 tommost If you're doing long polling, though...
08 20:26:00 andy753421 if you try to do 1000 threads per request for some strange reason, then you might have problems
08 20:26:00 andy753421 an where the hell did you come up with your vocabulary?
08 20:27:00 tommost Huh?
08 20:27:00 andy753421 "long polling", "hardware load balancer", etc
08 20:27:00 tommost The Internets.
08 20:27:00 andy753421 google searches don't return much more than a couple blog posts
08 20:27:00 tommost The Internets == web developer blogs.
08 20:28:00 tommost BigIP is the hardware load balancer that I've heard of.
08 20:28:00 tommost Long polling is the most common (and reliable) Comet technique.
08 20:28:00 tommost For example, Facebook uses it for their chat feature.
08 20:28:00 andy753421 hm.. maybe i'm just out of touch these days
08 20:29:00 andy753421 pop quiz, who here has heard of either 'long polling' or 'Comet' (the ladder of which not being a reference to interstellar objects)
08 20:29:00 tommost You've just hit on the place where I'm *very* in touch.
08 20:30:00 auchter andy753421: never heard of either, a quick google search has now told me that i don't want to know about either
08 20:30:00 auchter plus, the top of this page is just awesome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comet_(programming)
08 20:31:00 tommost Oh, yeah, there's a big fuss going on about that page.
08 20:31:00 andy753421 haha, i like the term "Peacock terms"
08 20:32:00 tommost Apparently Wikipedian deletionist procedure bureaucrats have taken over.
08 20:32:00 auchter oh, and the "See also" section links to Web 3.0, even better
08 20:32:00 andy753421 oh man, i hate peer reviewed journals, but I think I hate the 'blogosphere' even more
08 20:33:00 auchter why do you hate peer-reviewed journals?
08 20:33:00 tommost That page was actually fantastically informative a while ago, before it got beaten up so much.
08 20:34:00 andy753421 auchter: there's to much pressure on academic people to publish papers in order to keep their jobs and get grants
08 20:34:00 andy753421 so a lot of research articles end up being completely worthless
08 20:35:00 auchter even so, the signal-noise ratio is much much higher than this "blogosphere" (i shudder knowing that i just typed that word)
08 20:35:00 tommost is shocked that auchter actually referred to "it" as a "word"
08 20:35:00 auchter s/word/sequence of characters/
08 20:36:00 tommost is relieved.
08 20:36:00 andy753421 it's not the peer-review that's bad, it just seems like a lot of papers are written for the sake of money or reputation and not for the sake of research
08 20:37:00 tommost I read through the references on the Comet Wikipedia page and keep seeing familiar names and URLs.
08 20:37:00 andy753421 For instance, i'm basically required to publish a paper on my summer research project. Even if our idea completely fails and is totally worthless I still have to write a paper about it so NSF is happy
08 20:39:00 andy753421 i'm tempted to start a completely anonymous repository for research, that way people don't have any incentive to publish crap in it
08 20:39:00 andy753421 /rant
08 20:39:00 tommost Call it "Researchpedia". ;)
08 20:40:00 tommost Oooo... better: Researchr
08 20:40:00 tommost More Web 2.0!
08 20:40:00 andy753421 yea, but wikipedia isn't anonymous either
08 20:40:00 auchter wikileaks is...
08 20:41:00 tommost Speaking of wikis, I should get back to working on mine.
08 20:41:00 tommost Except I have about 20 tabs left to read...
08 20:41:00 andy753421 does wikileaks force you to post anonymously?
08 20:43:00 andy753421 anyway, nptl is awesome, and i'm going to set up a tent
08 20:44:00 auchter andy753421: i don't believe there's any other way to contribute to wikileaks
08 20:47:00 tommost nptl?
08 20:50:00 andy753421 tommost: native posix threading library
08 20:50:00 tommost Ah.
08 20:50:00 andy753421 it's the new(er) linux threading library that can start, 100,000 in a couple seconds instead of 15 minutes :)
08 20:51:00 tommost Neato.
08 20:51:00 andy753421 *100,000 threads
08 20:51:00 tommost But what can you do with 100,000 threads?
08 20:54:00 andy753421 run a process on a 100,000 core processor :P
08 20:54:00 tommost Sorry, but Thinking Machines folded.
08 21:25:00 tommost I'm wondering why the supposedly disabled GCJ plugin is still printing stuff to my console.
08 21:55:00 auchter i'm wondering why i'm installing ubuntu in a vm...
08 21:55:00 Morasique exactly, you should be installing it on your main partition :)
08 21:55:00 tommost Beware: Hardy Heron doesn't like VMs.
08 21:55:00 tommost At least, it doesn't like the one at Ventures.
08 21:56:00 tommost You need to set some Grub flag or something.
08 21:59:00 tommost Is there not a version of Vimperator for Firefox 3 yet?
08 22:00:00 auchter i think the new versions only run under firefox 3
08 22:01:00 tommost The version on addons.mozilla.org doesn't.
08 22:01:00 tommost Ah, mozdev.
08 22:03:00 tommost The stress of restarting Firefox is making my music skip.
08 22:03:00 tommost Oooo... it segfaulted.
08 22:05:00 auchter gah, ubuntu sucks
08 22:05:00 tommost Again!
08 22:05:00 Morasique i'm really tempted to switch to opera, but i like firefox so much more
08 22:06:00 tommost I'm *extremely* tempted to switch to Opera. It even has an almost-usable alpha version of a Firebug replacement now.
08 22:06:00 tommost It is just Greasemonkey holding me back.
08 22:08:00 tommost Of course, having about 30 tabs open (in two windows on different desktops) might be somewhat related to the problems I'm currently experiencing.
08 22:08:00 auchter at work, i've had firefox running (no crashes) for the past two weeks
08 22:09:00 auchter i have over 150 tabs open
08 22:09:00 auchter it doesn't crash, it's not slow. something's obviously very wrong with your install
08 22:09:00 tommost How much memory is it consuming?
08 22:09:00 tommost And do you have Flash installed?
08 22:09:00 Morasique auchter: do you run linux at work?
08 22:09:00 auchter no idea, i'll let you know tomorrow
08 22:09:00 auchter tommost: no, i don't use flash
08 22:09:00 auchter tommost: no wait, i do.
08 22:09:00 tommost Yeah, it's impossible to escape.
08 22:09:00 auchter tommost: i forgot that i needed to watch some videos
08 22:10:00 auchter Morasique: yes, of course
08 22:10:00 tommost Go go <video> tag!
08 22:10:00 Morasique hmm
08 22:10:00 auchter tommost: so i blame your firefox install, there's no way it should be that unstable
08 22:10:00 tommost Yeah, it's probably time for a fresh profile.
08 22:11:00 tommost Apparently they go bad after a while.
08 23:43:00 tommost povilusr_laptop: Cables!
09 11:37:00 auchter tommost_aorist: [mauchter ~]$ 9 ps | grep firefox
09 11:37:00 auchter mauchter 28439 Jun-30 128:11 248144K Sleep firefox-bin
09 11:37:00 auchter 95 tabs open
09 12:35:00 Morasique firefox must hate me, it crashes all the time on my laptop and also crashed on my windows work machine sometime during the night when nobody was touching it
09 12:35:00 Morasique maybe one of my addons is messed up
09 14:03:00 Morasique latest bug in my program: i was unable to type the alphabet in the correct order
09 14:13:00 Morasique it confuses me that lines are 1-indexed but columns are 0-indexed. we should pick one
09 14:50:00 auchter columns are 1-indexed in vim, unless the line is blank; makes perfect sense to me
09 14:58:00 Morasique oh. emacs 0-indexes them for some reason. i think when compilers give you error columns they're usually 0-indexed too, but i'm not sure
09 16:45:00 Morasique from a webpage trying to explain what a buffer overflow is: "What can happen? Well, the result is undefined. Basically that means the result is not defined"
09 16:52:00 auchter how informative
09 16:53:00 auchter one downside to using printf for debugging, as well...
09 16:54:00 auchter ocassionally i'll do something stupid like: long x; int y; printf("x: %d\ty: %d\n", x, y);
09 16:57:00 Morasique yeah, i kept mixing up the unsigned/signed format specifiers today
09 16:57:00 Morasique also, i hate myself: http://pastebin.com/m1f5612d
09 16:57:00 Morasique it took me so long to realize what was wrong with that
09 17:00:00 auchter i must be missing it as well, though the bit shifts and the sizeof(char) confuse me
09 17:03:00 Morasique the last line should be f[size << 1], not f[nS << 1]
09 17:03:00 Morasique nS is an unrelated variable from 10 lines ago, which is usually much bigger than size
09 17:04:00 Morasique and the stupid heap corruption error popped up at random times in random places throughout the function. this language is evil
09 17:04:00 auchter ah, i see
09 17:05:00 auchter why the sizeof char, though?
09 17:05:00 Morasique because it's storing chars?
09 17:05:00 auchter sizeof char == 1, or is C++ evil?
09 17:06:00 Morasique oh. well yeah, but it's good practice, i could just hardcode all the sizes if i felt like it
09 17:06:00 auchter i agree that it's good practice for other types, but i've never liked it for chars
09 17:08:00 Morasique i guess it doesn't matter, i don't think the size of char is going to change, it's just habit
09 17:34:00 povilusr-laptop whats the defaule autdio thing in xubuntu?
09 17:34:00 povilusr-laptop volume thing
09 17:42:00 Morasique if you're using alsa you can just run alsamixer
09 17:44:00 povilusr-laptop yeah but im sure there some nice built in tool
09 17:48:00 auchter yes, alsa. if you had wanted a not-nice tool, he would have suggested amixer
09 17:49:00 auchter s/alsa/alsamixer/
09 17:49:00 povilusr-laptop no, im sure theres something built into gnome that also accpets the buttons on our laptops
09 18:00:00 Morasique i use amixer from scripts, it's not bad
09 18:00:00 Morasique alsamixer just has a fancy interface
09 18:00:00 Morasique povilusr-laptop: i thought you were on xubuntu
09 18:00:00 povilusr-laptop i am
09 18:00:00 povilusr-laptop i think its running gnome though
09 18:01:00 povilusr-laptop nut iy might be xfce
09 18:01:00 Morasique er. you can't tell?
09 18:01:00 Morasique is gnome-panel running? the menus at the top, applications, places, system, stuff like that?
09 18:01:00 Morasique xfce i think you can right click the desktop to get a fancy menu
09 18:02:00 Morasique if you're running gnome the audio config tool is gnome-sound-properties, and there's a panel applet you can add to do stuff
09 18:02:00 Morasique i don't know for xfce
09 18:03:00 Morasique oh, and gnome-volume-control
09 18:03:00 Morasique which is probably what you want
09 18:03:00 povilusr-laptop its xfve but no right click menu i think
09 18:03:00 Morasique maybe it's not xfce that has that, i can't really remember
09 18:04:00 Morasique does xfce come with tools?
09 18:04:00 Morasique i thought it didn't
09 18:05:00 povilusr-laptop prolly dosent
09 18:05:00 Morasique alsamixer ftw
09 18:05:00 povilusr-laptop yep
09 19:14:00 octavious kazaam and drinking tonight
09 19:29:00 Morasique kazaam like...the movie?
09 19:29:00 octavious yeah
09 19:30:00 Morasique you're going to need a lot of drinking
09 19:30:00 octavious yeah, well i have a lot of alcohol so it shouldnt be hard
09 21:25:00 andy753421 what's the new URL for banner?
09 21:27:00 Morasique https://prodbss.rose-hulman.edu/BanSS/twbkwbis.P_WWWLogin
09 21:27:00 andy753421 ah ok
09 21:27:00 Morasique how could you forget?
09 21:27:00 Morasique it's so compact and memorable
09 21:27:00 andy753421 well, i remembered the domain name, but https://prodbss.rose-hulman.edu/ was all wrong
09 22:02:00 auchter they couldn't setup another subdomain to redirect to the actual url?
09 22:41:00 octavious_drunk i need cream. going to the store (dont worry i am not driving)
09 22:44:00 auchter white russians again?
09 22:45:00 auchter be sure to try the cream prior to purchasing, and write a check for it, too.
09 22:52:00 andy753421 ?
09 22:55:00 auchter andy753421: http://youtube.com/watch?v=oMkxr0Z9PcA
09 22:56:00 andy753421 ah, ok
09 23:14:00 octavious_drunk yes. white russians. they are quite delicious
09 23:27:00 octavious_drunk onward christian soldiers!
09 23:29:00 octavious_drunk http://media.songsandhymns.org/mp3/OnwardChristianSoldiers.mp3
09 23:30:00 octavious_drunk youre welcome.
09 23:44:00 auchter octavious_drunk: that was pretty much as terrifying as i had expected
09 23:48:00 Morasique er, is this a joke of some kind? http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8888563&st=ubuntu&lp=1&type=product&cp=1&id=1211587312374
09 23:49:00 tommost Given the domain name, I'd say no.
09 23:49:00 tommost They'd make you pay for using the air in their stores if they could.
09 23:49:00 auchter i see nothing wrong with that link
09 23:50:00 tommost $20 for a CD?
09 23:50:00 Morasique i can't imagine what valusoft could possibly be putting in that box that makes it cost $20
09 23:50:00 Morasique i like this: "keep your computer safe with powerful firewall and antivirus programs"
09 23:50:00 Morasique i imagine antivirus programs are not included in that box
09 23:50:00 tommost Wait... what?
09 23:51:00 auchter red hat, mandrake, suse, &c. are sold in stores as well
09 23:51:00 Morasique hopefully not for $20
09 23:51:00 Morasique usually it's like the cost of the CD and shipping
09 23:51:00 Morasique and shipping doesn't even apply here
09 23:51:00 auchter usually more than $20
09 23:51:00 Morasique that's terrible
09 23:52:00 Morasique clearly we should undercut them and start selling LUG-manufactured versions for a mere $15
09 23:52:00 tommost Yeah, well I once bought a copy of Mandrake Linux at Best Buy, for significantly more than $20, but it also included a bunch of commercial stuff that actually cost money.
09 23:52:00 tommost It was still a waste of money.
09 23:52:00 tommost Since Mandrake sucked.
09 23:53:00 auchter indeed it did
09 23:53:00 tommost It turned me off to Linux for years.
09 23:54:00 tommost Mainly because it took 10 minutes to boot.
09 23:54:00 Morasique that's funny, mandrake did the same thing to me a long time ago
09 23:54:00 Morasique i bought a boxed set and tried it
09 23:54:00 Morasique it was fairly terrible
09 23:54:00 tommost Yeah, I could never motivate myself to bother with booting it.
09 23:54:00 Morasique also, apparently ubuntu will ship you a CD for free, making the online order offer on bestbuy.com all the more ridiculous
09 23:55:00 tommost Yeah, collinjc has like 20 CDs he got shipped to him for the installfest.
09 23:55:00 Morasique it's nice to know mandrake stunted our linux lives for so long
09 23:55:00 Morasique i should e-mail them and let them know
09 23:56:00 auchter i actually used mandrake for some time
09 23:57:00 tommost What did it take to make it bearable?
09 23:57:00 andy753421 From the vim help files: `Registration was made possible for the situation where your boss or bookkeeper may be willing to register software, but does not like the terms "sponsoring" and "donation".'
09 23:57:00 tommost andy753421: Hehe.
09 23:59:00 auchter tommost: the fact that windows was completely unacceptable and unbearable
10 00:00:00 tommost I was using 2000 at the time, and sharing it with my brothers, so a full switch didn't have a sense of urgency attached for me.
10 00:00:00 auchter fun fact: ubuntu is the modern mandrake
10 00:01:00 tommost No, it boots much more quickly.
10 00:01:00 tommost Also, it doesn't use RPMs.
10 00:01:00 auchter superficial similarities aside, it's the new mandrake.
10 00:01:00 tommost Although it unfortunately doesn't have Power Manga installed by default. :(
10 00:02:00 auchter isn't that a plus?
10 00:02:00 tommost No, that was basically the only thing that motivated me to boot into Mandrake.
10 00:02:00 andy753421 all i remember about mandrake was it's horrid configuration utilities
10 00:02:00 auchter andy753421: yes, they seemed to break everything they touched
10 00:03:00 auchter andy753421: that was what led me to slackware...
10 00:03:00 Morasique based on our descriptions it's the anti-mandrake. mandrake made tommost and i dislike linux, ubuntu makes everyone like linux
10 00:03:00 andy753421 yep, same here
10 00:03:00 andy753421 that was a response to auchter, not Morasique
10 00:03:00 tommost Morasique: Excellent point.
10 00:03:00 Morasique andy753421: i assumed :)
10 00:03:00 Morasique does anyone in here use arch? i know blazeix does
10 00:04:00 Morasique i keep seeing claims that it's good, i'm curious why
10 00:04:00 auchter heathen
10 00:04:00 auchter http://crux.nu
10 00:04:00 auchter crux > arch
10 00:04:00 auchter they're both much worse than gentoo, though
10 00:05:00 Morasique thanks for your help :). i might as well have posted the question to digg
10 00:05:00 tommost auchter: Ouch.
10 00:06:00 auchter sorry, but arch is a bunch of splitters
10 00:06:00 Morasique meaning?
10 00:06:00 auchter well, they're kind of like the popular front
10 00:07:00 andy753421 like debian and ubuntu?
10 00:07:00 tommost I have no idea what this conversation is about.
10 00:07:00 auchter this will make it clearer: http://youtube.com/watch?v=gb_qHP7VaZE
10 00:09:00 Morasique ah. at least i know wtf we're talking about now
10 00:10:00 Morasique well, at some point blazeix will check the log and jump on to defend arch, so i'll wait till then
10 00:10:00 Morasique BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX
10 00:10:00 Morasique mmk, he should notice that
10 00:11:00 Morasique pacman is still the best name for a package manager i've ever heard. i suspect it's unbeatable
10 00:23:00 Blazeix Morasique: You summoned me?
10 00:23:00 Blazeix People use arch because its the best.
10 00:23:00 Blazeix hope that helps.
10 00:24:00 Morasique yes, you've been excellent :)
10 00:25:00 Blazeix Things just work under arch, I was having all sorts of goofy problems under ubuntu (I'm sure you can relate). While you have to specify more stuff under Arch, it only does what you tell it to do.
10 00:26:00 Blazeix Also, Arch has an amazing community (wiki, irc, forums), etc.
10 00:26:00 Morasique ubuntu has that too, only it's full of idiots
10 00:26:00 Blazeix ubuntu forums also has an arch linux subforum, which confuses me.
10 00:27:00 tommost Yeah, and it's full of rotting information applicable to an Ubuntu release two years old.
10 00:27:00 Blazeix I also like how Arch uses rolling releases and is more cutting-edge than other distros I've tried.
10 00:28:00 tommost How do rolling releases work?
10 00:28:00 Morasique on an unrelated note, for http://lug.phire.org/wiki/Installfest_Script it'd be good if we can somehow change the default partition scheme to manual instead of guided whole disk
10 00:28:00 Blazeix a release is a current snapshots of whats in the repository at that moment. They are made when everything is deemed stable
10 00:28:00 Blazeix stable-ish
10 00:29:00 tommost What's in the repository? Just core stuff, or common apps as well?
10 00:29:00 Blazeix Tons of stuff. There are subrepositories of core, extra, testing and community
10 00:30:00 Blazeix Then there is also AUR, which is a system where you can submit your own packages.
10 00:30:00 Blazeix AUR = Arch Users Repo
10 00:30:00 Blazeix Basically if I can't find it in the repo, there's a 95% chance its in AUR
10 00:31:00 Blazeix For example, Zeta is trying to get me to play Eve. Eve has a linux version, but its linux in the sense of they released a deb file.
10 00:31:00 Blazeix AUR had the deb file extracted and repackaged for Arch
10 00:32:00 Blazeix On another unrelated note, did anyone notice Angel is now Angel 7.3?
10 00:32:00 Blazeix And also full of fail. Predictably.
10 00:32:00 Blazeix "ANGEL LMS 7.3 only supports Internet Explorer 7 or Firefox 2"
10 00:33:00 andy753421 lucky you, i just got a Server Error
10 00:33:00 tommost How much is IAIT in charge of Angel? Can I bitch at them for it?
10 00:33:00 Morasique wow that theme is ugly
10 00:33:00 Morasique it looks like a mac
10 00:33:00 Blazeix Yeah, they basically made it slower and added 3d shadow buttons
10 00:34:00 andy753421 wow, did they get rid of frames?
10 00:34:00 Morasique no, they show up when you pick a class
10 00:34:00 andy753421 oh, ok
10 00:35:00 Morasique they can't get rid of the frames, how else could they show side by side content? it's the only way
10 00:35:00 tommost Is it just me or is the text at the to absurdly large?
10 00:35:00 Blazeix Damn. 7.2 had an Opera theme, which basically removed all the excessive background images, and it actually loaded relatively quickly. They removed in 7.3
10 00:35:00 andy753421 it looks like they're using iframes, didn't they used to use normal frames?
10 00:36:00 tommost Yeah, I think so.
10 00:36:00 Morasique tommost: yeah, it's ridiculous
10 00:36:00 Blazeix Does anyone know if I made a custom CSS file that set a whole bunch of stuff to display:none, would that speed it up? Or do browsers layout everything and then hide it?
10 00:37:00 andy753421 Blazeix: you could just use the 'PDA' mode
10 00:37:00 tommost No, you can definitely speed things up by using Stylish.
10 00:37:00 Morasique display:none doesn't prevent anything from loading, just from rendering
10 00:37:00 tommost Or a user style sheet.
10 00:37:00 tommost Morasique: Yes it does.
10 00:37:00 tommost If it has background images, etc.
10 00:37:00 Blazeix andy753421: Oh, cool. I might just use this permanently.
10 00:37:00 tommost And it stops iframes from loading, I think.
10 00:37:00 Morasique well, i guess that's part of the render, so it might speed it up somewhat
10 00:37:00 Morasique it wouldn't have to lay stuff out too, which would save time
10 00:38:00 tommost Looking at the markup I'm guessing that its all so slow to lay out because of all the tables.
10 00:39:00 tommost Though their number seems to have decreased somewhat.
10 00:40:00 Blazeix Wow. Does firefox correcly render the title bar for angel?
10 00:40:00 Blazeix They have HTML tags in their title
10 00:41:00 Blazeix I suppose 'correctly' isn't the right word here.
10 00:41:00 tommost No, I think that only IE does that.
10 00:42:00 Blazeix What the hell did the expect <h1> tags to do in the title?
10 00:42:00 Blazeix I have to wonder what runs through the heads of Angel developers.
10 00:43:00 tommost Blazeix: A noxious combination of mucous and urea.
10 00:46:00 tommost (It's the environment that the resident brain slugs most enjoy.)
10 00:46:00 Morasique Blazeix: it's been like that forever
10 00:47:00 Morasique the same problem comes up with class names, teachers use font tags in the class name and it shows up in the titlebar
10 00:47:00 Blazeix Hm. I guess my subconscious was protecting me.
10 12:28:00 Morasique you can't overload functions in C? this is an evil, evil language
10 12:28:00 andy753421 Morasique: sure you can, 'void *'
10 12:30:00 Morasique i'm not sure what you mean, but i suspect it's a C hack to get around yet another deficiency in the language
10 12:31:00 Morasique i'm sadly considering writing a vararg adapter, which seems to be the common solution
10 12:31:00 andy753421 Morasique: out of curiosity, what are you trying to do?
10 12:32:00 Morasique overload a function? you mean what specifically? it doesn't really matter, but i need it to either take 5 strings of hex characters or one string of BER-encoded data that I can decode into the 5 hex strings
10 12:39:00 andy753421 um, sounds like a job for two functions
10 12:39:00 andy753421 or a 'decode_ber' function
10 12:41:00 Morasique there is a decode_ber function. the function does the same thing, the data it needs can just be in two different formats, and preferably the people calling these functions should just be able to use either one and have the same thing happen
10 12:42:00 Morasique i wanted to overload the function so if it gets a BER string it calls the decode_ber function and passes the decoded strings to itself, but oh well. I just named the function something different
10 12:45:00 andy753421 just like PHP lets you use implode(Array, String) or implode(String, Array) interchangeable?
10 12:45:00 andy753421 why not just have them use "your_function(decode_ber(data));"?
10 12:46:00 Morasique no, nothing like that, that's because they stupidly mixed up the order originally, this is a function that takes two completely different sets of arguments depending on the situation
10 12:46:00 Morasique i don't want to have to expose the BER handling functions to them
10 12:46:00 andy753421 why not, to confuse them more?
10 12:47:00 andy753421 (c programmers don't like magic..)
10 12:47:00 andy753421 at least that's the impression I have
10 12:47:00 Morasique no, because they shouldn't need to know how the encoding works, they should be able to take the data from a file and throw it at my function, they shouldn't need to handle decoding it first
10 12:48:00 andy753421 didn't they have to decode it into either a ber structure, or a set of arrays?
10 12:49:00 Morasique no, they'll either have the BER encoded data or they'll have the 5 strings, depending on the situation, so they can pass either one to the function, and either way the function returns the same object
10 12:51:00 Morasique if it helps understanding this is for parsing RSA keys
10 12:51:00 andy753421 so they decoded it half way (to a ber, or 5 strings), and you want to magically decode it the other half way?
10 12:51:00 Morasique no, the data comes BER encoded
10 12:51:00 Morasique those keyfiles that start with "-----BEGIN RSA KEY----" are BER-encoded
10 12:52:00 Morasique so they'll either have that keyfile, or they'll have the 5 parts of an RSA key (2 exponents, modulus, 2 primes)
10 12:52:00 Morasique if you run "openssl genrsa 1024" you'll see it both ways
10 12:52:00 Morasique oh, no, that's just the BER. openssl genrsa 1024 | openssl rsa -text
10 12:54:00 andy753421 ok, well, i still have no idea why you would want to overload a function for that, but this doesn't seem to be getting anywhere..
10 12:56:00 Morasique it's not like it matters anyway, since C has decided for me that I never want to overload a function ever
10 13:45:00 auchter Morasique: you haven't seen hell until you've seen the way BouncyCastle's DER/BER handling works.
10 13:47:00 auchter how i wish i could be doing this in C using openssl.
10 14:01:00 Morasique i had to manually write the BER decoder because we can't depend on the openssl libraries, openssl's decode_PEM function was taunting me the whole time
10 14:01:00 Morasique it was surprising easy though, C is good at that stuff
10 14:01:00 Morasique just not good at letting me overload functions
10 14:02:00 Morasique i never knew about the -exec switch for find, that could be useful
10 14:04:00 auchter java's good at making me frustrated and having me end up with a recursive method with 6 occurences of instanceof in the body.
10 14:16:00 Morasique i don't even know how to do RTTI like instanceof in C++, AFAIK you can't, but i've never needed it before so i haven't looked around
10 14:17:00 Morasique it's comforting to get a confusing compiler error and google it, and see visited links and realize i've made this mistake before and apparently learned nothing
10 14:18:00 Morasique :D i think the section titles in this article would put andy753421/auchter in the hospital: http://www.linuxhaxor.net/2008/07/09/a-better-introduction-to-linux-user-interface/
10 14:19:00 Morasique it's starts off good with "Linux is more than Ubuntu", "Linux is more than GNOME", but then it's "Linux is also eye candy" and "Linux is a media center"
10 14:19:00 Morasique "Linux is also eye candy" should be the new motto
10 14:24:00 auchter "With Linux comes the power of choice. It is no more exclusive to geeky linux elitist only. Linux is open for everyone and you are invited." no, you're not. get out.
10 14:25:00 andy753421 nowhere in that article did I see `Linux is a Kernel'
10 14:25:00 andy753421 although there is a FSF guy at the bottom preaching about GNU/Linux
10 14:26:00 auchter compiz has single-handedly destroyed linux's image
10 14:30:00 andy753421 Morasique: in C, at runtime, everything is an instance of `void' ;)
10 14:41:00 Morasique andy753421: kernel? is that like for making the fire text?
10 14:41:00 Morasique and yeah, C has no type information, but I think C++ does somehow, I just have no idea how to use it
10 15:22:00 auchter vim needs a CamelCase text object
10 15:26:00 auchter good, i'm not the only one who saw the need for this: http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1905
10 16:05:00 Morasique apparently ANTLR was cool with the reduce/reduce conflict in my grammar, or at least it didn't feel the need to warn me in any way
10 17:15:00 andy753421 for (int i = 0; printf("%d", i) && i < 10 && printf(",") || !puts(""); i++);
10 17:17:00 Morasique why?
10 17:18:00 andy753421 that stemmed from me thinking about why ruby's while loops weren't implemented as functions
10 17:18:00 Morasique why would you use functions?
10 17:19:00 andy753421 well, ruby uses functions for things like foreach, but not for while
10 17:20:00 andy753421 well, technically methods `[1,2,3].each'
10 17:25:00 andy753421 I think `while (foo && (bar || true));' and `while (foo) {bar}' are the same..
10 17:27:00 auchter yes... why wouldn't they be?
10 17:27:00 andy753421 eh, i had just never thought about that before
10 17:29:00 auchter this is always fun, too: `while (bar, foo);' instead of `do { bar } while (foo);'
10 17:29:00 auchter thought they're not exactly the same, as i just realized a second after sending
10 17:30:00 auchter s/thought/though/
10 17:30:00 auchter i need to stop waking up early and skipping my afternoon espresso
10 17:32:00 auchter no wait, they are. even more evidence that i need caffeine.
10 17:33:00 auchter and if i'm wrong, i'm going to submit that as even further evidence
10 17:46:00 Morasique visual studio's intellisense database for each project tends to "go bad", where intellisense gets less and less reliable until finally it doesn't work anymore. you then need to delete the database so it can start over
10 17:47:00 Morasique this is the official microsoft solution
10 17:47:00 auchter intellisense?
10 17:48:00 Morasique the thing that hels auto-complete stuff like classes and variables and whatnot
10 17:48:00 Morasique ctrl+space in eclipse
10 17:48:00 auchter oh, ok.
10 17:48:00 auchter ctags might suck at making useful suggestions, but at least it always works
10 17:50:00 andy753421 well, you have to recreate the ctags database as well..
10 17:51:00 auchter indeed... if it didn't feel so dirty, i'd get eclim working again for when i'm writing java...
10 17:54:00 andy753421 http://www.vim.org/scripts/script.php?script_id=1785 not sure how well it works though
10 17:57:00 auchter i'll give it a try tomorrow
10 18:08:00 crr so I just logged in, and Pidgin recorded the last thing said in the channel, which was Mike saying "BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX BLAZEIX"
10 18:08:00 crr and I'm thinking, "man, I wish I was paying attention, so I could have abused his regex replacement plugin to make that a bit more noticeable"
10 18:09:00 auchter crr: sadly, i believe he's turned that plugin off
10 18:09:00 Morasique :D. i don't even use that program anymore, I use irssi now. If I did still have that plugin I would have to make it a slash command instead of auto-activated, you people can't be trusted
10 18:09:00 andy753421 or maybe he just says he has so we don't screw with him.. i know of only one way to find out ;)
10 18:37:00 octavious ..reads through logs..
10 18:37:00 octavious i believe the only way that C++ provides type information is through mangling symbols in an object
10 18:38:00 crr that's 100% true
10 18:38:00 crr well, 90%
10 18:38:00 crr the other 10% is the hidden pointer each object with a virtual function in it has to the vtbl
10 18:42:00 auchter is glad he doesn't need to know C++
10 18:45:00 Morasique auchter: you use C instead. and you like it. because you're broken
10 18:47:00 auchter Morasique: i suspect it has more to do with me being a CPE
10 18:49:00 Morasique speaking of things you like that are bad
10 18:51:00 auchter speaking of things that i like that are delicious: beef short ribs + doenjang == delicious
10 18:52:00 Morasique perfect segue there :)
10 18:53:00 auchter i wouldn't have said anything if it wasn't for your statement
10 18:53:00 auchter which i thought you were going to continue
10 18:55:00 tommost auchter: How are your devious robot plans coming?
10 18:56:00 auchter coming along decently. hopefully i'll get around to working on it more this weekend
10 18:57:00 tommost Any devious details to report?
10 18:57:00 auchter not particularly, i haven't decided on a lot of stuff yet
10 18:58:00 auchter i'm inherently indecisive...
10 18:58:00 tommost What are you debating?
10 18:58:00 auchter well, for one, what to use for a physical interface for CAN
10 18:59:00 tommost I vote for wires.
10 18:59:00 auchter well, that's obvious
10 18:59:00 tommost ;)
10 18:59:00 auchter though actually it's cool how you can do it optically, too...
10 18:59:00 tommost !!!
10 18:59:00 auchter almost nothing does that, and we have nothing to gain but complexity by doing that though
10 19:00:00 tommost is relieved
10 19:00:00 auchter but it's cool because dominant is light on, recessive is light off
10 19:01:00 auchter in terms of connectors, i'm pretty set on de-9 (common, commonly used for CAN)
10 19:01:00 auchter though i don't particularly like the standard pinout which is used
10 19:02:00 tommost That's a standard serial port connector, right?
10 19:02:00 auchter yes
10 19:02:00 tommost That sounds like a recipe for confusion.
10 19:03:00 auchter not really, i believe the standard is the connectors on each node are male
10 19:04:00 auchter anyway, with the standard pinout, there would probably need to be two connectors per node
10 19:04:00 tommost How does it work?
10 19:04:00 auchter since CAN is a bus, so we'd be daisy chaining
10 19:04:00 tommost Chaining?
10 19:04:00 tommost Mmm.
10 19:04:00 auchter i was thinking about doing something else though
10 19:05:00 tommost Aren't those connectors rather large?
10 19:05:00 auchter so it would turn it into a kind of pseudo-star-scsi deal
10 19:05:00 auchter yes, but they're easy to obtain and use
10 19:06:00 auchter anyway, dedicate two pairs in the cable to CAN, one going to the node, and one coming back from the node
10 19:06:00 tommost What are the rest? Power?
10 19:06:00 auchter then there would be a hub which connects the in of one connector to the out of the next, and so on
10 19:06:00 auchter so it's chaining, but you don't have a bunch of wires circling the robot
10 19:06:00 auchter tommost: yeah, i'd have a pair for power to reduce cabling
10 19:07:00 tommost What are the rest?
10 19:07:00 auchter with chaining them all (two connectors per node) the power would have to be pretty limited
10 19:07:00 auchter what?
10 19:07:00 tommost The rest of the pins.
10 19:07:00 auchter 9 wires, 2 for can in, 2 for can out, 2 for +12V, 2 for GND
10 19:08:00 tommost And all in a star physical topology?
10 19:08:00 auchter with the pseudo star arrangment, the "hub" would supply power to each connector
10 19:08:00 auchter and since the runs are shorter, etc.
10 19:08:00 tommost Mmm.
10 19:08:00 tommost Why 12 v?
10 19:09:00 auchter we have small conductors to work with
10 19:09:00 tommost So each device will do its own power regulation?
10 19:09:00 auchter yes, using a small switching reg (though i'd have to see if it's really worth it)
10 19:10:00 tommost What do you mean, worth it?
10 19:11:00 auchter 1) do i want a switching reg on each node? 2) if i get lazy and use a linear reg, are the losses worth it?
10 19:11:00 tommost Ah.
10 19:11:00 auchter depending on how long our runs are, 5V would probably work
10 19:11:00 tommost What about Jon's neat stacking idea?
10 19:12:00 auchter well, i haven't heard from him in a while, and though it's cool it'd be easier for simple nodes to just take the power from the bus
10 19:13:00 tommost I thought that the bus would be part of the stacking too?
10 19:14:00 auchter hm, i don't know. i guess my problem with the stacking idea is the increased complexity
10 19:14:00 tommost Ah.
10 19:15:00 octavious EtherCAT.
10 19:16:00 tommost Yes. Ethernet is always the solution. Especially for communication between tiny microcontrollers within feet of one another.
10 19:16:00 octavious eh, its still a damn cool bus
10 19:17:00 octavious probably too much for your purposes
10 19:17:00 tommost I'm going to guess yes.
10 19:17:00 tommost Although it would be cool if we didn't need any special hardware for the computer.
10 19:19:00 tommost auchter: Do you have any plans involving the number nine for this robot?
10 19:20:00 auchter i think you'll be relieved to hear that currently i do not
10 19:20:00 tommost Awww...
10 19:20:00 tommost is disappointed
10 19:21:00 tommost Are you planning that everything will communicate directly with the computer, or will it all go through some sort of embedded system?
10 19:22:00 auchter define "go through"
10 19:23:00 tommost Processed by and/or translated from CAN to some other interface via some sort of device that you are in charge of.
10 19:24:00 auchter yes, it has to be able to communicate with the computer somehow
10 19:24:00 auchter i'd prefer to not be in charge of it, but i doubt an off-the-shelf interface is in the budget
10 19:24:00 tommost Are you going to get some sort of embedded device to do this?
10 19:25:00 auchter see above answer
10 19:26:00 tommost What I'm wondering is if this will be some sort of embedded Linux machine, or a more-powerful microcontroller with a serial port.
10 19:26:00 auchter oh, it'll be a microcontroller
10 19:28:00 tommost That sounds like something you'd need to be in charge of ("you" being the electronics team).
10 19:30:00 auchter so... anyone else want to join the electronics team of the robotics team?
10 19:30:00 tommost collinjc has expressed interest.
10 19:30:00 tommost He is in Colorado at the moment.
10 19:30:00 auchter well, i make it your job to recruit him
10 19:31:00 tommost I'm on it.
10 20:11:00 tommost Mmm... Opera.
10 20:29:00 Morasique you switched?
10 20:31:00 tommost No, I'm just using it at the moment.
10 20:31:00 tommost Switching is a genuine possibility, though.
10 20:32:00 tommost Especially now that Opera has a Firebug-like thing.
10 20:32:00 auchter http://freya.phire.org/files/gencups.tar.bz2 cups setup script, if anyone's interested (not much gained from andy's tarball, but it's easier to control which printers you want to install with this)
10 20:33:00 tommost You should make it a shball.
10 20:33:00 auchter heh, i could use here documents and just make it all one script...
10 20:34:00 tommost This is an rc script.
10 20:35:00 auchter yes, i've never really written anything with bash
10 20:35:00 tommost I can't say that I blame you.
10 20:36:00 tommost I'm having trouble installing the plan9 port package, which is strange since I know that I've installed it before.
10 20:36:00 auchter what kind of trouble?
10 20:36:00 tommost As in, there doesn't seem to be one.
10 20:37:00 auchter it was called something weird
10 20:37:00 auchter 9base maybe?
10 20:37:00 tommost I already have that installed.
10 20:37:00 tommost What's with this $PLAN9 in the shebang?
10 20:38:00 auchter that's something that doesn't work
10 20:38:00 auchter replace that with the path to plan9port, or just do rc ./gencups.rc (what i do.)
10 20:38:00 andy753421 `#!/bin/env rc'?
10 20:39:00 tommost I don't seem to have an rc.
10 20:39:00 auchter andy753421: would probably be a better solution indeed
10 20:39:00 auchter is it in your path?
10 20:39:00 tommost It would appear not.
10 20:40:00 auchter export PATH=$PLAN9/bin:$PATH
10 20:40:00 auchter assuming you have $PLAN9 set, which you should since p9p's installer tells you to
10 20:40:00 andy753421 `locate /rc | grep '/rc$''
10 20:40:00 tommost I do not have it set.
10 20:40:00 auchter i blame ubuntu
10 20:41:00 tommost /usr/lib/9base/bin/rc
10 20:41:00 tommost Don't blame Ubuntu; this is obviously a community package.
10 20:42:00 auchter that's even worse than the path portage uses, which is hard to do
10 20:46:00 andy753421 muhahaha `paste -d, <(cut -d, -f2 1.csv) <(cut --complement -d, -f2 1.csv)'
10 20:48:00 tommost auchter: I get "read: No such file or directory" when I run your script.
10 20:49:00 auchter i'm guessing $PLAN9/bin is still not in your path then
10 20:49:00 auchter you could just change it to cat, actuall.
10 20:49:00 auchter no, wait, you can't
10 20:50:00 andy753421 yea, read is great
10 20:50:00 andy753421 you could change it to `head -n 1'
10 20:51:00 tommost Yeah, it's not on my sudo path.
10 20:51:00 auchter or if you like sed: cat | sed '1q'
10 20:52:00 auchter but that won't work either
10 20:52:00 auchter i'm on a roll tonight
10 20:52:00 auchter in fact, i should probably stop talking
10 20:53:00 tommost I'm quite mystified as to why this doesn't work. I added the plan 9 bin directory to my path.
10 20:55:00 auchter i'm not the only mad one, head -n 1 doesn't work either
10 20:56:00 tommost What does read do? Read a line?
10 20:57:00 auchter yes
10 20:57:00 auchter 9 man 1 read
10 20:57:00 tommost And what does this circumflex stuff with echo do?
10 20:57:00 tommost Where do those variables come from?
10 20:58:00 tommost Oh, I see.
10 20:58:00 tommost I too am tired.
10 20:58:00 auchter ^ is concatenation
10 20:58:00 auchter and it's a bloody caret
10 20:58:00 tommost I tried to type it but spelled it wrong.
10 20:59:00 tommost Circumflex just seemed easier.
10 22:37:00 Blazeix Morasique: I just watched the Yahtzee review of webcomics. Ouch.
10 22:37:00 andy753421 ICFP contest anyone?
10 23:08:00 auchter i'm reading through the results from last year, it looks pretty cool
10 23:14:00 auchter quote from the ICFP results paper from last year: "The initial DNA language looked suspiciously like regular expressions, since we all felt that sed(1) is under-utilised as a programming language paradigm."
10 23:30:00 andy753421 There was a team (i think in '06) named "The Drunk Sed Team"
10 23:47:00 Morasique http://0at.org/img/projects/summer_2008/firefox.png
10 23:48:00 Morasique Blazeix: that review made my day, i sent it to all the people i know that hate ctrl+alt+del :)
11 00:42:00 Morasique apparently i just had a kernel panic for the first time
11 00:43:00 Morasique X froze suddenly and my caps lock and scroll lock lights were blinking, google tells me that happens during a kernel panic
11 00:43:00 Blazeix Huh. I've never heard of the blinking caps/scroll lights before.
11 00:44:00 Morasique i hadn't either
11 00:45:00 Morasique supposedly some kernels actually blink an error message in morse code. i don't know if that's true or not, but if it is that's the coolest thing ever
11 00:46:00 andy753421 yep, blinking keyboard keys == bad :)
11 00:56:00 Morasique apt is telling me it needs to download 37mb of packages and they'll take up 0b of space
11 01:14:00 Morasique i might've asked this before, i don't remember: anybody have a problem where suddenly X stops responding to keystrokes?
11 01:14:00 Morasique everything else is fine, but the keyboard doesn't work anymore
11 01:14:00 Morasique it's been happening randomly for a couple weeks, i can't figure out the cause
11 01:47:00 Morasique screen gets very confused if you try to run it in the background
11 08:53:00 octavious Morasique: yes, i have had that problem for a while now, can you still move the mouse?
11 08:54:00 octavious if its the same problem I have, i have found that strangely enough, the only thing that fixes it is removing my battery and putting it back in
11 08:55:00 octavious doesnt make any sense, maybe a stray ACPI event wakes everything up again
11 09:39:00 Morasique octavious: yeah, the mouse works fine. i'll try the battery thing next time it happens and see if it's the same problem
11 12:05:00 Morasique damn it. i had a reminder that the icfp programming contest starts now. turns out it's 12:00 PDT
11 12:05:00 Morasique damn time zones
11 12:25:00 Morasique apparently this is a working RSA implementation in perl: print pack"C*",split/\D+/,`echo "16iII*o\U@{$/=$z;[(pop,pop,unpack"H*",<> )]}\EsMsKsN0[lN*1lK[d2%Sa2/d0<X+d*lMLa^*lN%0]dsXx++lMlN/dsM0<J]dsJxp"|dc`
11 13:10:00 auchter Morasique: that's why sane people use UTC
11 13:33:00 Morasique auchter: it's not like that would've helped, i would've been off by 8 hours instead of 3
11 13:33:00 Morasique it's not a win if you set your timezone so you're always wrong, it's just consistent
11 13:39:00 Morasique UTC stands for "Coordinated Universal Time"
11 13:39:00 Morasique first, no it doesn't. and why would they pass up the chance for a great acronym like CUT
11 13:47:00 auchter Morasique: it stands for "Universal Coordinated Time"
11 13:49:00 auchter and you just gave a perfect example of why time zones are ridiculous
11 13:49:00 auchter you got the offset incorrect from EDT
11 13:52:00 auchter if they would have just said the damn thing happens at 1900, there'd be none of this confusion
11 14:08:00 Morasique wikipedia and miscellaneous dictionaries claim "Coordinated Universal Time"
11 14:09:00 Morasique and yes, time zones are stupid, and i would love to live in a world where we all use the same time, but if i don't i'm going to stick with leaving my time in the zone I need it to be in 99% of the time, instead of training myself to subtrack 4 or 5 from what my clock says everytime i look at it
11 14:21:00 Morasique s/subtrack/subtract/ (10 minutes later)
13 23:46:00 tommost Welcome back, luglog.
13 23:46:00 tommost We've missed you.
14 00:26:00 Morasique any guesses why i can pretty much only do one thing at a time? if something is running it maxes out my processor and everything else lags really bad
14 00:27:00 andy753421 Morasique: you're using the wrong hard disk drivers :P
14 00:28:00 andy753421 try `hdparm -tT /dev/hda' and `cpufreq-info'
14 00:33:00 Morasique hmm. my cached reads drop from 500mb/sec to 50mb/sec when something else is using the disk. that seems drastic
14 00:33:00 Morasique although it wouldn't cause lag this bad. i don't think
14 00:33:00 Morasique even the mouse stops moving well
14 00:33:00 andy753421 for me, cached read ~= 800MB/s, buffered = ~40MB/s
14 00:34:00 Morasique wow. i fail
14 00:34:00 Morasique my buffered is 2.4mb/s. i must have something set up wrong
14 00:35:00 andy753421 e.g. the wrong disk driver ;)
14 00:36:00 andy753421 cat /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/uevent
14 00:36:00 Morasique i thought you were kidding about that
14 00:36:00 Morasique what are you looking for?
14 00:36:00 andy753421 or, `grep DRIVER /sys/devices/pci0000:00/0000:00:1f.2/uevent'
14 00:36:00 Morasique DRIVER doesn't show up anywhere
14 00:37:00 Morasique PHYSDEVBUS, PCI_CLASS, PCI_ID, PCI_SUBSYS_ID, PCI_SLOT_NAME and MODALIAS
14 00:37:00 andy753421 boo
14 00:37:00 andy753421 what's in `ls /sys/bus/pci/drivers/'?
14 00:39:00 andy753421 anyway, assuming this is still on your laptop, go to your kernel sources and:
14 00:40:00 Morasique sorry, i can't figure out how to copy paste stuff
14 00:40:00 Morasique 3c59x 8139too PIIX_IDE ahci amd5536udc b44 e1000 mptspi ohci_hcd sata_sil serial tulip
14 00:40:00 Morasique 3w-xxxx AMD_IDE agpgart-amd64 aic79xx ata_piix bnx2 ehci_hcd nvidia r8169 sata_svw sky2 uhci_hcd
14 00:41:00 Morasique 8139cp Intel ICH agpgart-intel aic7xxx b43-pci-bridge e100 forcedeth ohci1394 sata_nv sata_via tg3
14 00:41:00 Morasique hmm. that sort of worked
14 00:41:00 Morasique that was supposed to be a pastebin url, but i'll settle for that
14 00:41:00 andy753421 disable `Device Drivers->ATA/ATAPI/MFM/RLL support' entirely
14 00:41:00 andy753421 enable `Device Drivers->Serial ATA (prod) and Parallel ATA (experimental) drivers->Intel ESB, ICH, PIIX3, PIIX4 PATA/SATA support' and disable everything else
14 00:42:00 andy753421 and, what kernel are you using?
14 00:42:00 Morasique 2.6.24
14 00:43:00 andy753421 also enable `Device Drivers->SCSI device support->SCSI disk support' and optionally SCSI CDROM and SCSI generic support for cd support
14 00:43:00 andy753421 then recompile, fix fstab, and prepare for kernel panics ;)
14 00:44:00 octavious int array_of_int[NUM+1] { [0 ... NUM] = 0; }; //valid C?
14 00:45:00 andy753421 auchter: yes, i believe so, although i'm not sure about the []'s
14 00:45:00 Morasique i think you can leave the size out
14 00:45:00 andy753421 well, i guess that depends on your version of c ;)
14 00:46:00 octavious hmm. never really seen it, just came across the syscall table in the kernel source
14 00:46:00 octavious kind of how it is defined & initialized
14 00:47:00 octavious i didnt know about the [0 ... N] = 0; thing..
14 00:49:00 andy753421 octavious: http://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.2.3/gcc/Designated-Inits.html#Designated-Inits
14 00:49:00 octavious wasnt sure if it was a C language thing or gcc extension, because i know kernel developers are not shy about using gcc extensions
14 00:51:00 andy753421 for the record, this topic came up once before: http://lug.phire.org/irc/logs/2008-02.log
14 00:53:00 octavious i see. have we reached this point in our history where we can start a FAQ? :)
14 00:54:00 andy753421 haha, it'd be funny if insane GNU C extensions where what created the need for a FAQ
14 00:55:00 Morasique andy753421: that fixed it, thanks a lot
14 00:55:00 Morasique tommost: you were entirely unhelpful. go think about that for a while
14 00:56:00 octavious i swear. every summer i devolve into a total tool. at school I do a lot of heavy drinking/partying, but during the summer it is generally drinking alone watching star trek next generation and reading kernel source code
14 00:57:00 Morasique octavious: you made Blazeix so sad he left
14 00:58:00 Morasique :D
14 00:59:00 octavious eh, i figured sharing my problems with you all would get me quoted somewhere. i expect to see it on bash.org
14 01:00:00 andy753421 octavious: opposite for me, although i've been living with what you might refer to as 'normal people' this summer
14 01:01:00 andy753421 in other news, it's midnight here, so i'm going to bed
14 01:01:00 andy753421 in more other news, screw the belgians
14 10:07:00 Morasique windows forms supports hotkeys up to F24. are there any keyboard that actually go up to F24? because i want one if there are
14 10:08:00 Morasique s/keyboard/keyboards/
14 10:35:00 andy753421 Morasique: X11/keysymdef.h has XK_F{1..35}
14 10:59:00 Morasique well screw 24 then, i demand keyboards with 35 function keys
14 11:00:00 Morasique clearly we're being cheated, somewhere they've got a secret cache of keyboards with function keys all over them
14 13:39:00 Morasique sometimes i hear the sound windows makes when it's showing an error dialog, but there's no dialog. i'm starting to question if they're even real or if it's all in my head
14 15:58:00 andy753421 some language really needs to treat local variables as a hash set
14 16:02:00 andy753421 preferable one that can be accessed with `.'..
14 16:08:00 andy753421 e.g. `. = {a=3, b=4}; puts a; .a=5; puts a; map(lambda k,v: {k=v+1}); puts .;' => 3, 5, {a=6, b=5}
14 16:35:00 Morasique andy753421: python has locals(), that seems to be what you want
14 16:44:00 andy753421 hm.. looks nice, unfortunately, locals()['a b c'] = 3 doesn't make sense ;)
14 17:05:00 auchter speaking of hash sets, does anyone know of any good stand-alone hash set libraries for C/
14 17:05:00 auchter s|/||
14 17:05:00 auchter s/$/\?/
14 17:05:00 auchter i'm failing hard again today...
14 17:24:00 auchter ooh, 2.6.26 is out
14 17:25:00 auchter this quote is making me happy: "The work being done these days in the VFS like per-process namespaces and such is obsoleting some things" (http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_26)
14 17:28:00 andy753421 yea, there didn't seem to be anything exceptional in it, KVM would be nice if I had a new processor..
14 17:28:00 andy753421 read-only bind mounts sounds sweet though
14 17:28:00 auchter i thought that they just added more arch support to kvm, so it wouldn't be useful anyway
14 17:28:00 auchter yeah, that is nice as well
14 17:29:00 auchter though hackish how you have to go about it...
14 17:29:00 andy753421 yea probably, look at the 2.6 in that article
14 17:30:00 andy753421 i'm not sure what most of those mean though :/
14 17:30:00 auchter me neither, the hardware task switching looks like it is relevant, though
14 18:07:00 auchter ah, installing gentoo without even having to turn off my computer, take that ubuntu
14 18:08:00 Morasique :D i did that yesterday, it was quite satisfying
14 18:08:00 Morasique i didn't reboot till i had X set up. minimum downtime ftw
14 18:08:00 auchter indeed
14 18:09:00 auchter i'm sitting on my couch where it's comfortable while i can... i'm not going to be able to have my laptop on my lap once i start compiling Xorg...
14 18:10:00 andy753421 auchter: are you going to use `pivot_root' and `telinit u' once it's installed?
14 18:10:00 Morasique why are you reinstalling?
14 18:10:00 auchter andy753421: i hadn't considered that... sure, haha
14 18:11:00 auchter Morasique: i kind of feel like it... i like fresh starts
14 18:11:00 andy753421 after that, all you need is kexec :P
14 18:12:00 Morasique wow. pivot_root is very cool
14 18:17:00 auchter andy753421: are you using baselayout2?
14 18:17:00 andy753421 auchter: yes
14 18:17:00 auchter er, that was meant to be general for gentoo users
14 18:17:00 andy753421 took me forever to get installed
14 18:18:00 auchter does 2008.0 use it?
14 18:18:00 andy753421 I had a really old version of libc that it was linking against, which caused it to segfault all the time
14 18:18:00 andy753421 auchter: It's still in ~x86 so probably not
14 18:18:00 auchter yeah, i didn't see any mention of it in the release notes...
14 18:20:00 andy753421 yea, upgrading isn't to bad, as long as you don't have random copies of libc-2.3 laying around :)
14 18:20:00 auchter wow.. how old is your install?
14 18:21:00 andy753421 um, about ~3 days after I got my laptop, so somewhere around 3 years
14 18:22:00 andy753421 that libc was from winter break freshman year when I accidentally deleted gentoo's copy of libc and had to fetch one out of a RPM while running knoppix
14 18:22:00 andy753421 so gentoo didn't delete it because it wasn't form portage, and I forgot to delete it myself once i reemerged gentoo's copy of it
14 18:24:00 Morasique speaking of gentoo deleting things from portage, is there a way to mark ebuilds so they don't get removed by depclean?
14 18:26:00 andy753421 1) depclean doesn't remove ebuilds, 2) portage is not the system, 3) what's emerge trying to uninstall?
14 18:28:00 Morasique well, i thought "they" was clear since depclean only removes one thing. on ubuntu if you clean up dependencies it only removes packages that were installed as dependencies, but depclean removes all packages that aren't in use including things i installed manually
14 18:28:00 andy753421 "speaking of portage deleting things from gentoo, is there a way to make packages so they don't get removed by emerge --depclean?" might work better
14 18:28:00 Morasique well, now that we've got the semantics down, is it doable?
14 18:29:00 andy753421 when you emerge something it gets put in `world', emerge --depclean won't remove anything in world
14 18:29:00 Morasique hmm. maybe i did something wrong then
14 18:29:00 auchter gah, bitten again by no vim in the chroot
14 18:29:00 andy753421 unless you emerge with `emerge --oneshot foo' but you generally don't what to do that
14 18:29:00 Morasique auchter: it's a feature. a happy, happy feature
14 18:30:00 auchter what the hell, no ed either!
14 18:30:00 Morasique andy753421: ok
14 18:30:00 Morasique auchter: nano
14 18:30:00 auchter ED IS THE STANDARD TEXT EDITOR
14 18:30:00 andy753421 auchter: stick it to the man and use sed -i
14 18:31:00 andy753421 Morasique: see: /var/lib/portage/world
14 18:34:00 Morasique oh, cool
14 18:36:00 auchter nano is pure evil.
14 18:38:00 Morasique i avoided anything except typing and ctrl+x
14 18:39:00 auchter sed -i 's/ROOT/sda2/;s/\/dev\/BOOT/#&/;s/SWAP/sda1/;s/ext3/reisferfs/' fstab
14 18:56:00 Morasique is there a way to have awesome reload my configuration file without restarting X? i thought there was but i don't see it now
14 19:19:00 tommost How does SVN over HTTP work? Mainly, does it require Apache or could I do it over lighttpd instead?
14 19:20:00 tommost (This question is primarily directed at andy753421.)
14 19:21:00 andy753421 tommost I'm not sure, i've always used it with apache
14 19:21:00 andy753421 what is this for?
14 19:22:00 tommost I was mainly curious. I'm setting up the robotics team web server right now.
14 19:22:00 tommost lighttpd is less of a pain than Apache.
14 19:22:00 andy753421 use apache
14 19:22:00 Morasique i don't know what lighttpd is, but you can use svn without any web server, it comes with svnserve
14 19:23:00 tommost Yeah, I figured that I'd use it anyway, since that's what most people know.
14 19:24:00 andy753421 yea, there's apache modules for everything as well, which is quite convenient
14 19:24:00 tommost Morasique: lighttpd ~ light httpd
14 19:24:00 tommost andy753421: Yeah.
14 19:26:00 auchter i think mod_svn is only for apache2
14 19:27:00 tommost Well, it's not like I'd use Apache 1.3, so no problem there.
14 19:27:00 auchter i had tried to get it working with lighttpd a while ago and gave up
14 19:27:00 auchter let me know if you find something that works for svn over https without apache2
14 19:28:00 andy753421 wishes he knew why everyone hates apache :'(
14 19:28:00 tommost I kind of wonder about that myself.
14 19:29:00 tommost Lighttpd's config files really are nicer, though.
14 19:29:00 andy753421 meh, I guess i've just gotten used to apache's, and/or don't know anything different
14 19:29:00 andy753421 although, they are in XML, which makes the suck automatically
14 19:30:00 auchter openbsd only comes with apache 1.3...
14 19:30:00 tommost They aren't in XML.
14 19:30:00 tommost They just use angle brackets.
14 19:30:00 andy753421 it's basically xml
14 19:30:00 tommost In a vaguely HTML-ish fashion.
14 19:31:00 andy753421 if you start sections with <foo> and end sections with </foo> it's XML to me :P
14 19:31:00 tommost andy753421: Without namespaces and well-formedness requirements it doesn't begin to approach the hell that XML can be.
14 19:31:00 tommost auchter: Is that why you were trying lighttpd?
14 19:32:00 auchter why?
14 19:32:00 tommost Only 1.3?
14 19:33:00 auchter oh, actually that was unrelated
14 19:49:00 tommost andy753421, auchter: Any objections to Postgres?
14 19:50:00 auchter i don't use sql.
14 19:50:00 tommost Non-objection noted.
14 19:50:00 Morasique how do you live without sql?
14 19:50:00 Morasique that's like saying "i don't use the letter F"
14 19:50:00 andy753421 tommost: as long as everything we're planning on ever using fully supports postgresql, then that's fine
14 19:50:00 tommost Okay.
14 19:50:00 andy753421 although, last I check (which was a while ago) wikimedia does not
14 19:51:00 tommost It does.
14 19:51:00 tommost But we aren't using it anyway.
14 19:51:00 auchter Morasique: what do you use it for so much?
14 19:51:00 andy753421 wait, we're not?
14 19:51:00 andy753421 when did that decision get made?
14 19:51:00 tommost Sometime last week.
14 19:51:00 Morasique any project that requires persistent shared data, including every web project ever
14 19:51:00 tommost Er, no, the week before that.
14 19:52:00 tommost Before I started writing a markdown processor.
14 19:52:00 andy753421 can you give me a date, I'd like to read the logs
14 19:53:00 tommost Just search for the first occurrence of "Markdown" in last month's log.
14 19:53:00 tommost Or whatever the crazy rc CMS auchter suggested's name is.
14 19:53:00 tommost auchter: No offense.
14 19:55:00 tommost split_re = re.compile(r'^ {0,3}\d+\.\s')
14 19:55:00 tommost YOU FAIL AT COPY AND PASTE LINUX!!!
14 19:55:00 tommost http://137.112.99.22/
14 19:56:00 andy753421 tommost: so you're planning on writing our wiki yourself?
14 19:56:00 tommost Yes.
14 19:57:00 tommost Guess what language it's *not* written in?
14 19:57:00 andy753421 I completely feel that that is one the worst choices we could possible make, regardless of the language.
14 19:58:00 andy753421 #1. We're a robotics club, not a web development club
14 19:58:00 Morasique sadly
14 19:58:00 andy753421 #2. Your turning into Kevin surprisingly quickly
14 19:58:00 tommost Rose should have a web development club.
14 19:58:00 andy753421 tommost: maybe you should make one
14 19:58:00 tommost andy753421: Don't insult me. I have banished Windows Server 2003 myself!
14 19:59:00 andy753421 tommost: i'm not trying to insult you, actually, you're a very good programmer, but that's not the point
14 19:59:00 tommost (I was joking, there.)
14 20:00:00 tommost And yeah, you do have a point.
14 20:00:00 andy753421 kevin was a pretty good windows sys-admin for that matter, the problem is that both of you seem to be using the robotics club for pet projects
14 20:01:00 andy753421 i'm all for learning and experimenting, but when someone else has to maintain it in ~2-3 years it can quickly become a very bad idea
14 20:01:00 Morasique i was going to make a web development club, but then i realized i could just have tommost take over the robotics club from the inside
14 20:01:00 Morasique it was going so well till now
14 20:02:00 tommost Mmm.
14 20:02:00 andy753421 (this is the same reason I object to auchter using 9P for everything, and the same reason I didn't push using Ruby for the software)
14 20:03:00 tommost *sigh*
14 20:03:00 auchter believe me, i now reject using 9p for everything, it's not something used for robotics at all
14 20:03:00 auchter which is why i'm pushing CAN, too
14 20:05:00 tommost Okay, but *must* it be MediaWiki?
14 20:05:00 tommost It pains me.
14 20:05:00 andy753421 tommost: no
14 20:05:00 tommost And not just because it's PHP.
14 20:06:00 andy753421 but it *must* be something that people have seen before, and that won't need much custom scripting
14 20:06:00 auchter fun fact: vimperator stops working properly when you run out of space on your /home partition
14 20:06:00 tommost Ooooo.... Plone?
14 20:06:00 tommost ;)
14 20:07:00 tommost Well, I really want to avoid using more than one programming language.
14 20:07:00 andy753421 tommost: personally, I would love plone
14 20:07:00 tommost How practical is it, though?
14 20:08:00 andy753421 I don't mind using more than one programming language if it's something we'll never have to write code for, (after all, the linux kernel is written in C..)
14 20:08:00 andy753421 plone might fall into the category of to_damn_hard_to_setup
14 20:08:00 tommost Well, I meant, between Trac (Python) and anything else, you already have at least two different sets of templates.
14 20:09:00 tommost That's one thing that I didn't like about the old set-up.
14 20:09:00 tommost The site template hardly was—there were at least four different copies of it.
14 20:09:00 andy753421 hehe, yea i noticed that as well
14 20:09:00 andy753421 personally, i don't see the need for templates, but whatever
14 20:10:00 tommost Well, Trac and wikis pretty much require them.
14 20:10:00 tommost And maintaining a site without them is a PITA.
14 20:10:00 andy753421 hm.. what i mean't by that was with the old site, i didn't see the point of boxing the wiki into a little frame
14 20:11:00 tommost Yeah, it didn't integrate well at all.
14 20:11:00 tommost My new design is intended to accommodate that stuff better.
14 20:12:00 andy753421 so what all are we going to have anyway?
14 20:12:00 andy753421 could we just put _everything_ on trac?
14 20:12:00 tommost I suppose so.
14 20:12:00 andy753421 that would certainly make things simple..
14 20:12:00 tommost I'm not at all opposed to it, despite some **stupid** bits of Trac's wiki syntax.
14 20:13:00 andy753421 agreed with the **stupid** stuff, but that's really just cosmetics
14 20:13:00 tommost Well, mainly I was referring to __underscores__, which mangle __init__.py, etc.
14 20:13:00 tommost But yeah.
14 20:13:00 andy753421 we'd have to see about how well that would work for the hardware and electronics teams
14 20:14:00 tommost auchter?
14 20:14:00 auchter whatever you two decide, i'm staying out of this ;)
14 20:14:00 andy753421 personally, i think it would work well, you could submit tickets for things like funding requests, etc
14 20:14:00 tommost And yeah, I don't know about how well Trac deals with photos.
14 20:15:00 tommost Yeah, I always wanted to use the ticket system more.
14 20:15:00 auchter ok, i will say that tickets for funding would be excellent.
14 20:15:00 andy753421 also things like a motor controller tick, or a gearbox ticket would be nice
14 20:16:00 auchter even better is if we could replace SGA with a ticket based system...
14 20:16:00 tommost What about access controls on them? Or do we really care about people seeing funding stuff? (Do our sponsors?)
14 20:16:00 andy753421 I don't care, but we'll have to check with SGA
14 20:17:00 tommost Also, is there any real reason to use SVN over HTTPS vs. ssh+svn://?
14 20:17:00 andy753421 yes, but svnserve might be a decent alternative
14 20:18:00 andy753421 for one, we can post source code
14 20:18:00 andy753421 and not have to give out shell accounts
14 20:18:00 tommost Oh, I thought that we'd want people to have shell accounts... not everyone has a Linux box.
14 20:19:00 auchter speaking of which, when will the servers be running?
14 20:19:00 andy753421 also, i believe svn+ssh:// and file:// have file locking and permission problems because everyone directly access the databse
14 20:19:00 andy753421 tommost: i was talking about non club people, like the elphel guys
14 20:19:00 tommost Oh, well, everything's still viewable via Trac.
14 20:20:00 andy753421 can you do a checkout from that?
14 20:20:00 tommost Probably not.
14 20:20:00 tommost Yeah, HTTPS it is.
14 20:20:00 tommost auchter: The link I posted earlier is the sole functioning server.
14 20:21:00 tommost We do not have enough hard disks for a second.
14 20:21:00 auchter ah, i see
14 20:21:00 tommost I haven't set up LDAP yet, but there is an administrator account if you would like to set up an SVN repo.
14 20:22:00 auchter yeah, i'm all set for now
14 20:22:00 tommost (Currently the processor is pegged at 100% as it decompresses the fsroot.tar.bzip2 file I made earlier.)
14 20:23:00 tommost Also, we *must* put new hard disks in the budget.
14 20:23:00 tommost The disk in this machine is one of the 5-6 year old ones.
14 20:23:00 auchter just borrow them from the mac
14 20:23:00 tommost :D
14 20:23:00 tommost Could the robotics team get a VM going on the mac?
14 20:23:00 andy753421 tommost: we can make a funding request at the start of next year
14 20:25:00 tommost Okay.
14 20:27:00 tommost Um, if it's all going on Trac we may not be able to do multiple subdomains.
14 20:27:00 tommost Would that be worth messing with?
14 20:27:00 andy753421 what do we want multiple subdomains for?
14 20:27:00 tommost Well, they currently seem to be used to separate public-facing pages from the "project" pages.
14 20:28:00 andy753421 oh, i think that's dumb
14 20:28:00 tommost Okay. Drop the www?
14 20:29:00 andy753421 um, sure, have apache do a redirect to rhitrobotics.org
14 20:29:00 tommost NP.
14 20:29:00 andy753421 if we wan't to have 'public' pages, I say we steel pidgin.im's design
14 20:29:00 auchter complete?
14 20:30:00 andy753421 well, not design, but setup, they seem to do everything with trac, and have a few simple 'front' pages
14 20:31:00 tommost Ah, yeah.
14 20:31:00 tommost Their setup is nice.
14 20:32:00 andy753421 looks like they use php, so probably not steel their code though
14 20:33:00 tommost I was thinking that I'd just make some special wiki pages.
14 20:33:00 andy753421 that seems like a better idea to me
14 20:33:00 andy753421 much better infact
14 20:33:00 tommost That's what my original plan was, anway. :)
14 20:33:00 andy753421 :)
14 20:37:00 tommost It doesn't look like Trac has very good support for images. :(
14 20:37:00 tommost E.g., no uploads.
14 20:38:00 andy753421 apparently you can upload it as an attachment, and then link to that
14 20:38:00 tommost Oh, okay.
14 20:38:00 andy753421 http://trac.edgewall.org/wiki/WikiFormatting#Images
14 20:41:00 tommost I wish that we had an easier to set-up option than LDAP. :(
14 20:41:00 andy753421 agreed, but i don't know if one exists..
14 20:43:00 andy753421 pam_ldap is what they're using here at the ou cs department as well
14 20:44:00 tommost sighs
14 20:44:00 andy753421 don't worry, it's lightweight
14 20:45:00 tommost The HOWTOs that I've looked at have made it seem far too flexible for our needs.
14 20:46:00 andy753421 it probably is
14 20:47:00 andy753421 i've used ldap before so I might be able to help set it up
14 20:49:00 tommost Oh, awesome. My mouse nub just popped off.
14 20:49:00 tommost I wish that I had a ThinkPad.
14 20:50:00 andy753421 there's a gentoo-wiki article on LDAP, http://gentoo-wiki.com/OpenLDAP
14 20:50:00 tommost Ooo... Gentoo wiki is good.
14 20:51:00 andy753421 hey, they even have install instructions for debian/ubuntu :P
14 20:51:00 tommost Excellent.
14 20:51:00 tommost I know that I can count on the Gentoo wiki to tell me *why* I should follow these steps, not just what they are.
14 20:51:00 andy753421 looks like you probably don't need to install quite that much stuff though
14 20:54:00 auchter i find this amusing "',*,7$/ ,1387 ('*( '(7(&7,21 ',('"
14 20:54:00 auchter oh, well, apparently xpdf fails at copying. nevermind.
14 20:54:00 tommost No, auchter. Failure at copy and paste MUST BE SCREAMED IN ALL-CAPS!!!
14 20:54:00 tommost !!!!!!
14 20:55:00 Morasique auchter: it's ok, i found it amusing either way
14 20:56:00 andy753421 erg, i'm off
14 21:19:00 tommost So, Justin, coming to Rose this fall?
14 21:24:00 Ayatollah tommost: yeah man, for my senior year, josh dragged me in here
14 21:25:00 tommost Where from?
14 21:32:00 Ayatollah tommost: for my senior year at rose, i've been there all along. sorry man i was a little vague
14 21:32:00 tommost Eh, NP.
14 21:37:00 octavious so, if i have been skimming right, there is new plans for a the LUG site?
14 21:37:00 tommost No, we were talking about the robotics teams' site.
14 21:38:00 octavious oh. well you guys just need to stop talking about the robotics shit in this channel. get your own :P
14 21:38:00 tommost There already is one... #rhrt.
14 21:38:00 auchter when did this happen? i remeber suggesting we not talk about robotics in here, a i remember being overruled
14 21:38:00 octavious ahh. do you think we could create enough content to have a blog portion of the lug site?
14 21:40:00 tommost_aorist Why would we want that?
14 21:40:00 octavious i thought it would be interesting, maybe maintain the presentations better, in a blog reader-friendly format
14 21:40:00 octavious or just for members who want to post cool shit they have found
14 21:41:00 auchter hmm, i like the cool shit idea...
14 21:43:00 tommost Well, reddit's open source...
14 21:43:00 octavious i am sure each of us stumble on to cool shit every once in a while, it would probably be a cool way to tie it all together
14 21:43:00 octavious although, everyones idea of cool shit is different
14 21:43:00 tommost Well, that's what makes it interesting.
14 21:43:00 octavious exactly. i think reddit is probably overkill
14 21:44:00 tommost I was joking.
14 21:44:00 octavious eh, i assumed so
14 21:44:00 auchter slashcode!
14 21:44:00 tommost GaAaAh!
14 23:09:00 auchter i heard my fans spin down and was all excited because i thought that meant xorg was done compiling...
14 23:10:00 auchter nope, it's just taking a break to download the next tarball
15 00:06:00 Morasique auchter: how long have you been compiling?
15 00:28:00 auchter Morasique: not long, xorg has been long done (it really didn't take long at all, actually)
15 00:29:00 auchter i'm building firefox right now as i'm asleep, at least that was the goal (sleep, that is)
15 00:30:00 Morasique ah. good job with that
15 02:09:00 Morasique now i'm failing at sleep
15 02:09:00 Morasique curses auchter
15 06:17:00 auchter the fact that i'm eating kimchi right now, at 6:17, is making me at least consider the fact that i'm addicted to it.
15 06:51:00 Mishtal the fact that you are awake at 6 am makes me question either your sanity or your lack of insomnia
15 06:52:00 Mishtal either or
15 07:52:00 tommost I just ate a piece of fudge and a glass of cranberry juice for breakfast.
15 07:53:00 tommost A delicious combination.
15 13:45:00 Morasique every language should allow multiple return values from a function
15 13:45:00 Morasique it's almost effortless to implement, and i want it
15 13:56:00 andy753421 I bet you could write a m4 macro to do it
15 13:57:00 Morasique i should've realized googling "m4" would not do what i wanted
15 13:58:00 andy753421 um, 3'rd results?
15 13:58:00 Morasique well yeah, i found it, but i hadn't expected pictures of guns everywhere, it was alarming
15 13:58:00 Morasique probably moreso for anyone looking at my screen
15 14:27:00 auchter mauchter 28439 Jun-30 309:54 510552K Sleep firefox-bin
15 14:28:00 auchter 199 tabs open
15 14:48:00 Morasique very impressive
15 14:48:00 Morasique mine crashed again last night, and my gentoo copy crashed 2 hours after i installed it, so i should really go through my plugins and figure out which one causes it
15 17:19:00 tommost Mine still hasn't crashed since I disabled GCJ.
15 17:22:00 tommost Holy sh*t! 1744 MB/2048 in use!
15 17:26:00 tommost Okay, so that's 26.1% Firefox; 20.2% kvm (XP with 512 MB allocated); 10.6% Exaile (!); 9.4% Thunderbird; 6.7% X; 6.7% X (again‽); followed by the long tail.
15 17:27:00 andy753421 ahh, mutt's hanging out a 0.2% mem :)
15 17:31:00 tommost Yeah, well, Thunderbird's bloatedness doesn't surprise me. It's Exaile that does.
15 17:31:00 tommost And why is X running twice?
15 17:31:00 andy753421 are you using xgl?
15 17:32:00 tommost No.
15 17:32:00 andy753421 i don't know then
15 17:32:00 andy753421 try killing one and see what happens
15 17:33:00 tommost That sounds like a good idea... no, wait.
15 17:34:00 auchter apparently i forgot to install the x input driver for my keyboard
15 17:34:00 tommost That sounds bad.
15 17:34:00 auchter i'm not even sure how that's possible
15 17:34:00 auchter nah, one command later and it was fixed
15 17:34:00 tommost Did that command involve compiling anything?
15 17:34:00 auchter now i'm in glorious twm
15 17:34:00 auchter of course.
15 17:35:00 tommost Oooo...
15 17:35:00 andy753421 make.conf: INPUT_DEVICES="keyboard mouse synaptic wacom evdev"
15 17:35:00 auchter INPUT_DEVICES="evdev keyboard mouse synaptics"
15 17:35:00 auchter that was there when i built xorg, but apparently it skipped it.
15 17:36:00 Morasique twm might be more ugly than mac os. there's a chance
15 17:37:00 auchter no, it isn't. my eyes don't hurt when using twm
15 17:37:00 auchter also, i can actually *maximize* the bloody widows
15 17:37:00 auchter s/widows/windows/
15 17:37:00 tommost twm == pain
15 17:37:00 andy753421 ooh, INPUT_DEVICES="spaceorb" I don't know what that is, but it sounds cool
15 17:38:00 auchter uh, not compared to that "window manager" that macos uses
15 17:38:00 auchter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpaceOrb_360
15 17:38:00 auchter oh, i thought that had a picture
15 17:38:00 auchter i wanted one years ago
15 17:38:00 tommost I don't know about OS X, but OS 8's WM is certainly better than twm.
15 17:40:00 tommost Okay, so despite both Xs having identical memory use and command lines, only one of them is taking any CPU time.
15 17:40:00 Morasique well, clearly you should kill that one
15 17:40:00 Morasique do it.....
15 17:41:00 tommost It seems to have been spawned by the other one, too.
15 17:42:00 auchter why is there not a use flag for 256 colors in rxvt-unicode...
15 17:43:00 tommost What USE would that be?
15 17:43:00 andy753421 auchter: I was thinking that myself.. you should submit a patch/bug report
15 17:44:00 andy753421 unfortunately having TERM=rxvt-256color makes sshing into anything else suck since they don't have termcap entries for it
15 17:44:00 auchter i set TERM=rxvt
15 17:44:00 andy753421 i do, but that's still a pain
15 17:45:00 andy753421 i should probably alias ssh to TERM=rxvt ssh
15 17:45:00 auchter no, i mean my .bashrc sets TERM=rxvt
15 17:45:00 andy753421 why?
15 17:45:00 auchter why not?
15 17:45:00 andy753421 because that's the wrong termcap entry so all the colors are screwed up
15 17:46:00 auchter they look fine to me, though i do have some voodoo in my .vimrc
15 17:46:00 auchter which is the only program i really care about colors for...
15 17:46:00 auchter hm, actually, i'll look once i'm able to mount my home directory again
15 17:47:00 andy753421 try `:runtime syntax/colortest.vim'
15 17:48:00 auchter i haven't gotten around to patching rxvt-unicode yet, still working on getting dwm configured
15 17:49:00 andy753421 alright, for me the light colors don't work so spell check highlighting is terribly annoying
15 17:59:00 collinjc Hey!
15 18:11:00 auchter that was enthusiastic
15 18:27:00 collinjc It was. Sadly, it was meant for a reply, but the IRC window stole focus.
15 18:52:00 tommost Ooooo... those focus thieves. Nasty ones, those.
15 18:52:00 tommost So, auchter: motor controllers?
15 18:52:00 octavious heh, well. i am continuing my tool-nes by downloading seasons of Star Trek Voyager
15 18:53:00 tommost I started watching Voyager at the beginning of the summer based on the promising first few episodes. Unfortunately, then it turned into Star Trek and I got painfully bored.
15 18:54:00 Morasique star trek has a bad habit of doing that
15 18:54:00 Morasique solution: watch doctor who
15 18:54:00 tommost Yeah, I still need to finish season 1 of the new series.
15 18:54:00 tommost But I see previews on SciFi for new episodes and they scare me. Who the heck is that guy?
15 18:55:00 Morasique david tennant?
15 18:55:00 tommost Did the Dr. Who I'm familiar with get addicted to caffeine and crack?
15 18:57:00 tommost Also, apparently SciFi messes with the episodes.
15 18:57:00 Morasique i would send you the wikipedia link, but i still haven't figured out how to copy paste successfully
15 18:57:00 Morasique what do they do to them?
15 18:57:00 tommost No idea.
15 18:58:00 Morasique then how do you know they mess with them?
15 18:59:00 tommost http://www.reelviews.net/php_reelthoughts_template.php?identifier=476
15 18:59:00 tommost "pruning shears"
15 19:00:00 Morasique ah
15 19:03:00 Morasique cool. this is probably news to just me, but /dev/vcs# holds the contents of tty#
15 19:03:00 tommost Cool.
15 19:04:00 andy753421 Does anyone know the status of unicode on windows/mac? If I put things in e-mail like `km²' will anyone be able to read it?
15 19:04:00 tommost Yeah, it'll be fine.
15 19:04:00 tommost Such a character will certainly be available on Windows.
15 19:05:00 tommost And also on Mac OS, which apparently has much nicer infrastructure for supporting international scripts than Windows, anyway.
15 19:06:00 andy753421 alright, if I send plain text e-mails, do they normally get displayed in fixed width?
15 19:06:00 andy753421 wants to start using box drawing characters
15 19:07:00 tommost Probably, though Outlook 2007 may unwrap lines that aren't too short.
15 19:07:00 tommost I wouldn't count on box drawing characters being available.
15 19:07:00 tommost The issue is the fonts available, not Unicode support as such.
15 19:07:00 andy753421 hm.. i'll have to e-mail myself some stuff and test it out
15 19:09:00 auchter most clients probably won't use monospaced fonts by default, either
15 19:10:00 tommost They will if you send an HTML e-mail with monospace fonts.
15 19:10:00 tommost As painfull as that may seem.
15 19:11:00 andy753421 Never!
15 19:11:00 andy753421 i might as well save it as a JPEG at that point
15 19:11:00 tommost If you want to get things across accurately the best option is to typeset the e-mail in LaTeX and...
15 19:11:00 tommost Oh, you got there first.
15 19:11:00 tommost Though PNG would be a better option. ;)
15 19:12:00 auchter "stationary
15 19:12:00 auchter " has got to be the worst "feature" in lotus notes
15 19:12:00 andy753421 yea, gif would work as well, but i was definitely just making fun of rose-hulman all-campus-mailers
15 19:22:00 Morasique andy753421: you should just make things up in microsoft publisher and e-mail out the raw publisher file, that's the best way
15 19:22:00 tommost No, no, no—use Photoshop and send the PSD. It's larger—it has to be better.
15 19:23:00 auchter no, no, mail clients should obviously just render postscript
15 19:23:00 tommost Finally, someone speaks sense.
15 19:26:00 auchter i want bind(1) under linux without having to use something crazy like unionfs.
15 19:26:00 tommost Would that feature that was introduced in the kernel yesterday help?
15 19:27:00 auchter nope, that was just read-only bind's
15 19:27:00 tommost Are binds writable?
15 19:27:00 auchter yes, but mount's bind doesn't merge filesystem contents
15 19:28:00 andy753421 mount's bind and bind(1) are very different
15 19:28:00 auchter indeed
15 19:28:00 tommost I mean, are plan 9's binds writable.
15 19:28:00 tommost ?
15 19:28:00 andy753421 mounting over a directory hides the directories contents, bind(1) merges them
15 19:28:00 andy753421 tommost of course
15 19:28:00 auchter tommost: yes
15 19:28:00 tommost How does it work?
15 19:28:00 auchter http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/bind
15 19:30:00 tommost Okay, so it works because directories are implemented as files?
15 19:31:00 andy753421 not really, it basically keeps a stack of what is mount for a particular path
15 19:31:00 andy753421 so it just writes to the first one
15 19:32:00 tommost So when you go to open a file (for reading) it goes through the list of directories?
15 19:32:00 andy753421 it goes though the list of mounts
15 19:32:00 tommost Okay.
15 19:33:00 tommost How does hiding stuff work, then?
15 19:33:00 andy753421 hiding?
15 19:34:00 andy753421 oh, when i said 'mounting over a directory hides the directories contents' i was talking about linux's mount
15 19:34:00 tommost I was talking about Plan9's.
15 19:34:00 tommost "if the modification doesn't hide it,"
15 19:34:00 tommost (From that man page.)
15 19:36:00 andy753421 i assume that is referring to if you do 'bind /foo/bar /foo'
15 19:36:00 tommost Ah, okay.
15 19:36:00 tommost Would that be Plan9's equivalent of a chroot?
15 19:37:00 andy753421 i guess so, 'bind /foo/bar /'
15 19:37:00 auchter tommost: remember, each process has its own namespace
15 19:38:00 andy753421 although, the existing files in / would still be there since /foo/bar is bound over it
15 19:38:00 tommost Then can you clear the namespace?
15 19:39:00 andy753421 i would guess that you could use unmount
15 19:42:00 auchter there's newns(2) which i think will clear the namespace
15 23:58:00 Morasique http://1997.webhistory.org/www.lists/www-talk.1993q1/0182.html
16 00:00:00 auchter "perfect solution to come along (MIME, someday, maybe)."
16 00:01:00 auchter damn, why'd you have to link to an interesting thread...
16 00:03:00 auchter haha, i like the talk of http2 in the next post...
16 00:48:00 Morasique excellent: http://www.catonmat.net/blog/follow-reddit-from-the-console/
16 01:38:00 Morasique http://linuxhaters.blogspot.com/
16 10:05:00 Morasique the guy who just e-mailed us apparently really likes his name
16 10:35:00 Morasique somebody on reddit wrote a 21 line python script to download the current xkcd comic, so somebody else wrote a 1 line bash script
16 13:29:00 Zohan Anyone around?
16 13:35:00 Morasique hmm?
16 13:49:00 Zohan I'm actually looking for the cell number of Jon Klei
16 13:49:00 Zohan er Klein
16 13:49:00 Zohan Wondering if anyone in Lug has it.
16 13:51:00 Zohan Jay doesn't
16 13:57:00 Morasique sorry, i don't have it
16 13:58:00 Zohan Darn
16 15:36:00 Morasique i'm in an argument with 3 people about if it makes sense to output errors to stderr
16 15:37:00 Morasique *it's in the name*
16 15:40:00 andy753421 what is their argument against it?
16 15:40:00 andy753421 (or, what is their alternative?)
16 16:01:00 Morasique they want everything to stdout; the argument is that they can easily pipe the output to a file using >. my points that you can still do that with 2>&1 and that there's no way to split them up if everything goes to one stream don't seem to be having much effect
16 16:58:00 auchter stdout is usually buffered, too, isn't it?
16 16:59:00 auchter so you'd have to fflush(stdout); or chance the messages not appearing if things go downhill
16 17:02:00 Morasique auchter: it is, i hadn't even considered that. i'm pretty sure no argument was going to actually have any effect
16 17:39:00 auchter why does the plan9port ebuild not do this: sudo find $PLAN9/man -iname '*.bz2' -exec bunzip2 {} \;
16 17:39:00 auchter or better yet, just not bzip2 the damn things in the first place
16 17:42:00 andy753421 why do you need them unzipped?
16 17:43:00 auchter because p9p's man doesn't support bz2
16 17:49:00 auchter povilusr-laptop: facing the front of your apartment building, what's the address of the building to the right? (assuming you're still in terre haute, which it looks like from your ip)
16 18:45:00 Mishtal http://www.masturbatoreum.com/view.php?id=5
16 18:45:00 Mishtal probably something that you dont need to see.
16 18:45:00 Mishtal youve been warned
16 18:48:00 Mishtal this one is just funny http://www.masturbatoreum.com/view.php?id=449
16 19:02:00 Morasique wow. i really should not have clicked on that link
16 19:05:00 Mishtal curiosity killed the cat, or the innocence in this case.
16 21:48:00 octavious pretty quiet around here today
16 22:03:00 Morasique octavious: i'm failing at google codejam at the moment
16 22:35:00 tommost makes noise
16 22:38:00 Mishtal makes reply noise
16 22:46:00 Mishtal my vehicle is on street view now
16 22:46:00 Mishtal google knows of my existance
16 22:46:00 Mishtal i must hide and wear my tinfoil hat now
16 22:55:00 tommost Linky!
16 22:57:00 Mishtal http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=826+champlain+crt+terre+haute+indiana&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=28.237206,66.577148&ie=UTF8&ll=39.459602,-87.332962&spn=0.006701,0.020417&z=17&layer=c&cbll=39.456242,-87.333445&panoid=4chluNh0Xhc9I2AsJBWDXQ&cbp=2,14.203072250501407,,0,2.2185968181188653
16 22:57:00 Mishtal mine is the red buick in between the doors of the building
16 22:57:00 Morasique i would click that if i hadn't promised myself i'd never click any link you post ever again
16 22:57:00 Mishtal lmao!!!!
16 22:57:00 tommost Hahe.
16 22:57:00 tommost Well, I can verify that it's safe.
16 22:58:00 tommost Wait a minute... no it's not safe1
16 22:58:00 tommost !
16 22:58:00 tommost Google is using Flash.
16 22:59:00 tommost Flash, I tell you!
16 23:10:00 auchter i would have been more active today, but i went to see spartacus
16 23:10:00 auchter i was not expecting it to be 200 minutes long.
16 23:10:00 tommost What? I mean, it's famous for being ridiculously long. That's why I still haven't seen it.
16 23:11:00 auchter yeah... i really didn't know that
16 23:26:00 Morasique http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/linuxaudio.png
16 23:27:00 tommost Er, what is that trying to accomplish?
16 23:27:00 Morasique it shows how all the different linux audio methods fit together
16 23:27:00 Morasique mostly it's trying to make linux audio look bad :)
16 23:27:00 tommost Yeah, it's pretty deceptive.
16 23:28:00 tommost For starters, you'd never actually use PulseAudio through ESD.
16 23:29:00 tommost It's also mixing audio playback libraries with audio output—GStreamer, for starters, shouldn't be there.
16 23:29:00 tommost I'm guessing that SDL shouldn't either.
16 23:37:00 tommost http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2008/05/flash_uses_the_gpu.html
16 23:37:00 tommost Everyone hates Compiz. :(
16 23:39:00 tommost Not that *not* running Compiz seems to help the situation for me one bit.
16 23:39:00 tommost Inevitably, I blame ATI.
16 23:40:00 Morasique awesome is growing on me, i need to mess with the configuration more
16 23:40:00 tommost Yeah, so do I.
16 23:40:00 tommost Both times I tried I failed to add a clock.
16 23:41:00 tommost An apparently it's all changing with awesome 3, so I don't really feel motivated.
16 23:43:00 Morasique yeah, that made me sad :). they're switching to a lisp syntax though, which is cool
16 23:43:00 Morasique and i have a clock set up if you want it, it's fairly simple
16 23:43:00 octavious i find most of the default layouts for awesome are unnecessary and not useful
16 23:44:00 Morasique me too, i'm trying to figure out how to write custom layouts, i know it's doable somehow
16 23:44:00 octavious really-all i want is a vertical dwm-style, and floating...really just need to go back to dwm
16 23:44:00 tommost Yeah, the issue that I always ran into was making a typo in the config file when trying to include it. And there was no error message telling me *where* so I just gave up.
16 23:44:00 auchter octavious: you like the vertical layout?
16 23:45:00 tommost I use both vertical layouts and both horizontal layouts frequently.
16 23:45:00 octavious yes. but generally i only ever have 2 apps open.
16 23:45:00 octavious firefox and one terminal
16 23:46:00 tommost Is that per tag?
16 23:46:00 auchter ah, ok... at work i have around 5 per tag
16 23:46:00 auchter i need to add more tags...
16 23:46:00 octavious yeah, but i really only use one tag, heh.
16 23:46:00 tommost At that rate, why do you need a window manager? ;)
16 23:46:00 octavious screen is more of my manager...
16 23:46:00 Morasique i was just going to say that :). i use at least 4 tags regularly, more if i'm actually doing stuff
16 23:47:00 octavious screen splits my terms up, instead of running multiple terms..
16 23:47:00 Morasique ah. that works. i still use too many gui apps
16 23:47:00 auchter i like screen, but i like dwm better
16 23:47:00 auchter i'm going to have to give dvtm another try, maybe it has improved
16 23:47:00 auchter that would be the ultimate.
16 23:48:00 octavious yes, it did look promising when i checked it out
16 23:49:00 octavious maybe i should migrate back to ratpoison
16 23:51:00 tommost I was there briefly. It made a lot of its emacs-like keybindings, which later influenced me to not choose emacs as an editor.
16 23:51:00 tommost Some day I might bother learning vim.
16 23:52:00 Morasique sighs and looks at tommost in sad resignation
16 23:52:00 octavious totally worth it...i would say that vim and screen are two apps worth knowing well.
16 23:52:00 octavious vim moreso than screen
16 23:53:00 auchtemm ok, dvtm has much improved.
16 23:53:00 tommost I'm guessing it's like dwm for screen?
16 23:54:00 auchtemm it's like dwm for the terminal
16 23:54:00 auchtemm oh yes, screen has just been replaced
16 23:55:00 auchtemm the only problem is that i apparently keep thinking i'm in vim, so i'm pressing ctrl-w all the time...
17 00:09:00 andy753421 so what's the advantage to using multiple windows in screen instead of multiple windows in the window in X?
17 00:10:00 auchter i would guess the primary advantage would be persistence across computers
17 00:11:00 tommost That reminds me that I need to try the Xpra trunk.
17 00:15:00 Morasique i thought you'd tried it before
17 00:15:00 tommost I tried .4 or .04 or something.
17 00:15:00 Morasique ah
17 00:15:00 tommost He said in #parti that the trunk should have scrollwheel support.
17 01:20:00 Morasique cool, xrandr finally works
17 01:20:00 Morasique it never worked under ubuntu for some reason
17 09:05:00 octavious andy753421: yes. persistence. the screen session is running on my server at all times. also, only one terminal, one ssh connection, etc...
17 11:06:00 Morasique i just realized, the way my company has their wiki set up, all the pages are in the same namespace. why are people so anti-namespace? it would drive me crazy to set something up like that, it would be like setting up your hard drive without folders
17 14:13:00 Morasique "For an Ubuntu beginner or curious Windows intermediate user however, there.s no single, simple source of information when it comes to making your first Ubuntu installation."
17 14:13:00 Morasique lug should be offended
17 15:19:00 auchter IAIT broke stuff, at least from the two computers i've tried this from
17 15:19:00 auchter example: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~auchtemm does not work for me
17 15:19:00 auchter http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~auchtemm/ does work
17 15:27:00 Morasique wow. every webserver in the world converts that automatically, how did they mess that up?
17 15:28:00 auchter it looks like it tried to, but fails
17 15:49:00 auchter yeah, i'm at the point of blaming libc for my program segfaulting on this free()...
17 15:50:00 auchter i run my program using valgrind, and it works flawlessly
17 15:50:00 Morasique perhaps it's god punishing you for using C
17 15:51:00 Morasique did you check the address right before the free call to see if it's at least plausible?
17 15:52:00 auchter yup, it's very plausible. and it works most of the time (like 10 times in a row, then it fails)
17 16:04:00 Morasique how does it fail?
17 16:09:00 auchter by segfaulting
17 16:21:00 auchter awesome, it seems to have randomly stopped.
17 16:34:00 Morasique i fixed it. you're welcome
17 16:37:00 Morasique awesome: http://www.linux.com/feature/141231
17 16:37:00 Morasique it's like having a flag named ONLY_SAVE_LOGS_IF_NOTHING_BROKE
17 16:45:00 andy753421 Morasique: wow, that's really a terrible idea
17 16:46:00 andy753421 see /usr/src/linux/Documentation/laptop-mode.txt for a sane way to do that
17 17:26:00 tommost Okay, I filed a ticket on the slash redirection thing.
17 17:26:00 Morasique ah good. now our crack IT department can fix it
17 17:27:00 tommost I'm guessing that this means things have been upgraded.
17 17:28:00 tommost Yup: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mosttw/lnk/phpinfo.php
17 17:29:00 Morasique oh good. just in time for my project from last fall quarter that i begged them to upgrade for
17 17:31:00 auchter while you're at it, file a ticket requesting ability to use chsh or some equivalent
17 17:32:00 tommost I did.
17 17:32:00 andy753421 we just need to be able to edit our own LDAP entries
17 17:32:00 auchter why do they love tcsh so much anyway?
17 17:32:00 tommost The reply said something about backwards compatibility.
17 17:32:00 tommost Give me a sec; I'll paste it.
17 17:35:00 tommost http://dpaste.com/65669/
17 17:35:00 tommost Somehow my shell is now zsh, though I don't seem to have actually mentioned that in the ticket.
17 17:37:00 auchter hmm, i might just have to file a ticket then
17 17:42:00 andy753421 agreed
17 17:45:00 Blazeix Am I just tired, or does the solution in that ticket not make sense?
17 17:46:00 Blazeix It doesn't quite parse
17 17:46:00 tommost Yeah, I have no idea what it means.
17 17:46:00 Blazeix Maybe the first word is supposed to be 'now'
17 17:46:00 tommost Also, it doesn't seem to be complaining about the lack of a .zshrc.
17 17:49:00 Blazeix Did anyone see the P.S. on one of Linus Torvald's postings today?
17 17:49:00 tommost Link, please.
17 17:49:00 Blazeix "PS. And to get wider distribution for this message: Digg users - you're
17 17:49:00 Blazeix all a bunch of Wanking Walruses. And you can quote me on that."
17 17:49:00 Blazeix http://lwn.net/Articles/290498/
17 17:51:00 Blazeix flwellyn's comment on that post is good as well.
17 17:52:00 tommost Indeed.
17 17:52:00 Morasique :D i would switch back i think
17 17:52:00 tommost Morasique: You've totally abandoned us?
17 17:53:00 Morasique i still have an ubuntu install for the moment, but i'm dropping it at some point, i don't boot into it anymore
17 17:53:00 auchter i really regret clicking on the links in that comment.
17 17:58:00 Morasique GAH! firefox, i hate you
17 17:58:00 tommost Crash?
17 17:58:00 Morasique yeah
17 17:58:00 Morasique and i get confused on a tiling WM 'cause another window takes its place right away, i stared at the screen for like 5 seconds wondering wtf happened
17 17:58:00 tommost Yeah, that happens to me, too.
17 17:59:00 auchter i keep firefox in its own tag
17 18:03:00 tommost I generally have it on the same tag with at least 2 other programs, and usually many more.
17 18:03:00 tommost Right now it's sharing [one] with gnome-terminal and Pidgin.
17 18:03:00 andy753421 i usually have most things on the same tag :/
17 18:03:00 tommost Oh, and stalonetray.
17 18:04:00 andy753421 but wmii is better at having more things in the same tab
17 18:04:00 andy753421 *tag
17 18:05:00 tommost andy753421: How so?
17 18:05:00 andy753421 it doesn't have a 'master' and 'stacking' area, all the windows are equal
17 18:05:00 andy753421 it also lets you put each column in either full screen, stacking, or split mode
17 18:06:00 tommost Oh yeah, it has that 'collapse to titlebar' mode.
17 18:07:00 andy753421 yea, so I have a column for wide things, and a column for tall things, and pidgin is in it's own column that's about ~100 px wide
17 18:08:00 tommost Yeah, I do like your pidgin column. I usually just hide the buddy list (or banish it to my Thunderbird tag) since I don't really ever use it, though.
17 18:09:00 tommost What I wish awesome had was "flex" (like in XUL), so that I could say that certain windows deserve more space in a column/row than others.
17 18:09:00 andy753421 yea, that's one of the things that keeps me away form dwm/awesome, there's no good way to deal with skinny but tall windows
17 18:10:00 tommost Well, awesome's horizontal layouts are usually good for that.
17 18:11:00 tommost I like to put firefox and an editor in the upper two large master panes and a bunch of terminals, Pidgin, etc. in the lower ones, which get skinny when there are enough windows down there.
17 18:11:00 andy753421 yea, but you still only get half screen height
17 18:12:00 andy753421 i usually end up with pidgin on the left, a stacked window next to that with height/width ration roughly equal to a page of paper, and then terminals and such on the right
17 18:12:00 tommost True, though I honestly don't have any use for the full height like your Pidgin window.
17 18:13:00 andy753421 yea, reading PDF's and coding at the same time is the most usefull thing probably
17 18:14:00 andy753421 although, i really wish you could split the rows in each column into sub columns
17 18:14:00 auchter in dwm i usually put the pdf in the master pane and my terminal with vim in the stacking area
17 18:15:00 andy753421 yea, that's pretty much what mine ends up looking like
17 18:15:00 auchter i need to give wmii another go one of these days, i think i'd really like it
17 18:17:00 andy753421 i usually end up using vim to split terminal in half down the middle
17 18:17:00 andy753421 but then sometimes I get confused and try to use the vim keys to go to a different window, or the WM keys to go to a different vim window :(
17 18:17:00 auchter vim's window management sometimes really confuses me
17 18:18:00 auchter like when i accidentally do ctrl-w L and send a window that was in the upper left all the way to the right
17 18:18:00 auchter then i have no idea how to get it back to where it was...
17 18:18:00 andy753421 haha, yea, there's a bit of voodoo to that :)
17 18:19:00 andy753421 although, you can just split a new window where you want it, close the old one, and then change the new ones buffer
17 18:19:00 auchter that's what i usually end up doing
17 18:20:00 andy753421 ^Wr and ^Wx ar fun to, but i never really use them
17 18:21:00 auchter what's ^Wx?
17 18:22:00 andy753421 "Without count: Exchange current window with next one. If there is no next window, exchange with previous window."
17 18:22:00 auchter ah, ok. i've never used that before... i use ^Wr occasionally
17 18:22:00 andy753421 or if you give it a count, it's the n'th window
17 18:22:00 auchter i also love forgetting that i'm in insert mode when i try to change windows
17 18:23:00 andy753421 heh, speaking of which, i should learn more insert mode editing commands
17 18:26:00 auchter as much as i hate to say it, eclim is awesome for java editing
17 18:26:00 auchter in fact, i wish i had something similar for C, unless i just need to read the ctags man page
17 18:28:00 andy753421 have you looked at `:help ft-c-omni'?
17 18:30:00 auchter not until just now, but that doesn't seem to say anything i didn't know
17 18:30:00 auchter one feature i like about eclim is that it shows function prototypes and class members (with types)
17 18:31:00 auchter ctags (at least the way i'm using it) doesn't
17 18:32:00 auchter although i suppose showing the variables contained within a struct would be difficult, showing function prototypes doesn't strike me as being hard
17 18:35:00 andy753421 here's what I get: http://andy753421.ath.cx/test.png
17 18:35:00 andy753421 I wish it would show the prototype in the popup though
17 18:41:00 andy753421 while were on the topic: `:set completeopt=menuone,longest,preview', and `:set tags=tags;,.tags;'
17 18:42:00 andy753421 `:set tags=tags;' is sweet because it recursively looks in parent directories for files called 'tags'
17 18:42:00 octavious hmm. one useful insert mode command is CTRL-R
17 18:42:00 octavious also, command-line mode
17 18:43:00 tommost I'm sorry to report that I've given up on vimperator. I'm just going to write a Greasemonkey script that implements the hotkeys that I used.
17 18:44:00 auchter any particular reason why?
17 18:44:00 auchter andy753421: yeah, eclim shows it in the popup
17 18:45:00 tommost Mainly because its key bindings conflict with ones that I use all the time.
17 18:45:00 tommost Also, I don't really think that modality suits a web browser.
17 18:45:00 tommost It doesn't really have enough functionality to make that necessary.
17 18:46:00 tommost I'm now trained to hit j to go down, which means that I'm now marking stuff junk in Thunderbird all the time.
17 18:46:00 auchter personally, i love the hinting, and the ability to set marks and use j/k G gg, etc.
17 18:46:00 tommost Yeah, I tried it because I wanted to use that.
17 18:47:00 tommost But I never got the hang of it, whereas I was already reflexively using "/link text" to navigate, which Vimperator broke.
17 18:49:00 auchter ah, i've never liked that feature anyway, i think the hinting is easier
17 18:49:00 tommost It probably is.
17 18:51:00 tommost But Vimperator also seems to mask a bunch of keys so that they never make it to the page, and the key to disable that doesn't work randomly (presumably depending on what mode you're in).
17 18:51:00 auchter i've never experienced that, but you might be doing different things than me
17 18:52:00 tommost Also, there doesn't appear to be any way to automatically disable Vimperator's keybindings on certain sites.
17 18:52:00 tommost This sucks for Google Reader, which has j as an extremely useful hotkey.
17 18:52:00 auchter ah, ok. yeah, i don't use anything like that
17 18:53:00 tommost The increased speed of using hjkl on most sites is outweighed by the sheer agony of Reader without that hotkey.
17 18:53:00 tommost (Not that Reader isn't already painful.)
17 19:10:00 tommost http://diveintomark.org/archives/2008/07/17/things
17 19:10:00 tommost Surpisingly relevant.
17 19:22:00 auchter wow, from the comments on that page: http://brettcsmith.org/2007/dtrx/
17 19:23:00 auchter i love it, something written in python to replace the difficult `tar xf' command.
17 19:25:00 tommost a) What does Python have to do with it?
17 19:25:00 tommost b) This looks useful.
17 19:25:00 tommost (Mainly for stupid zip files.)
17 19:26:00 tommost BTW, "sudo easy_install dtrx" works.
17 19:27:00 andy753421 yes.. because 'unzip foo.zip' is difficult ;)
17 19:27:00 tommost No, it's not, but zip files are very frequently bombs.
17 19:27:00 tommost "dtrx" is horrible to type, though.
17 19:28:00 andy753421 really, this sounds like a job for the plumber
17 19:28:00 auchter that what i was just about to type
17 19:28:00 tommost I was thinking alias.
17 19:28:00 auchter s/that/&'s/
17 19:29:00 auchter tommost: no, he meant use plumber instead of this dtrx
17 19:29:00 tommost Oh, it can inspect files?
17 19:29:00 tommost Or does it just do the filenames?
17 19:29:00 auchter just filenames
17 19:29:00 andy753421 why would you want to inspect files?
17 19:30:00 tommost To prevent tarbombs. What else is the point of drtx?
17 19:30:00 tommost Certainly not tar -xf, as auchter mentioned.
17 19:32:00 Mishtal tar/zipbombs = uncompressing an archive to discover that it was written to uncompress to "huge" garbage?
17 19:32:00 andy753421 unbomb is about 5 lines of bash: unbomb <command>, so 'unbomb tar -xf foo.tar'
17 19:32:00 andy753421 Mishtal: no, an archive that contains files at the top level
17 19:33:00 Mishtal andy753421: oh, i see what you mean. thanks
17 19:33:00 Mishtal tommost. what do you think of getting asani's delivered to ventures on a semi/quasi regular basis?
17 19:34:00 tommost It would make a good Wednesday meal.
17 19:34:00 Mishtal true
17 19:34:00 tommost Nico's is also a good option.
17 19:34:00 auchter nico?
17 19:34:00 Mishtal i was speaking more on the lines of everyone pitches in the price of their order + some tip
17 19:35:00 tommost Niro? Nyro? Something like that.
17 19:35:00 auchter still have no idea what you're talking about. i'm assuming it's a restaurant in terre haute, but i haven't heard of it
17 19:35:00 tommost Mishtal: It's a tad pricey to do regularly.
17 19:35:00 tommost Niro's Gyros
17 19:36:00 tommost Yes, a restaurant.
17 19:36:00 auchter hm, i wonder how i haven't heard of it...
17 19:36:00 Mishtal tommost your right. its pretty pricy. i think that sandor is hoping that he can get some type of discount
17 19:36:00 Mishtal Niro's gyros? the one you mentioned before? im going to have to get you to point it out for me time
17 19:36:00 Mishtal sometime*
17 19:37:00 auchter the best cheap restaurant in terre haute: george's cafe
17 19:38:00 auchter i eat there far too often
17 19:38:00 tommost I've never heard of it. Where is it?
17 19:38:00 Mishtal i cant ever make it there @ the times people says its open
17 19:38:00 auchter around 7th and cherry
17 19:38:00 auchter on cherry, that is
17 19:38:00 andy753421 we should start a local restaurants page on the wiki
17 19:38:00 auchter he has erratic hours, but lunch is always open
17 19:38:00 auchter ooh, not a bad idea
17 19:39:00 tommost andy753421: Great idea.
17 19:39:00 Mishtal andy753421: I agree
17 19:39:00 auchter someone should create a template for entries
17 20:23:00 collinjc tommost: I hate cars.
17 20:24:00 tommost You have every reason to.
17 20:25:00 collinjc Not only is it leaking in two places, but the wheel won't come off without an impact wrench or a breaker bar.
17 20:27:00 collinjc Which means no brakes until Saturday when I have to drive the 60 miles to my older brother's house.
17 20:28:00 tommost Yikes.
17 20:28:00 tommost You need a ride?
17 20:29:00 collinjc Nah. I'm going to have to drive it there in the end no matter what.
17 20:29:00 tommost I meant to Ventures.
17 20:30:00 collinjc Hmm... Perhaps that would not be a bad idea.
17 20:30:00 tommost I'm sure that you can ride with Brian and I tomorrow.
17 20:31:00 collinjc That would be awesome if I could.
17 20:31:00 collinjc I mean, I made it just fine today, but it would probably be best to keep driving the thing to a minimum.
17 20:32:00 tommost Definitely.
17 20:34:00 collinjc What time do you guys typically leave?
17 20:46:00 tommost Sometime after 7:50.
17 20:51:00 collinjc Okay.
17 21:00:00 auchter hah, from p9p's upas/fs fs.c: postnote(PNGROUP, getpid(), "die yankee pig dog");
17 21:21:00 octavious switched to ratpoison. i feel very at home
17 21:22:00 octavious like a no-frills dwm..
17 21:23:00 tommost Ouch.
17 21:26:00 auchter out of curiosity, what's the memory usage of ratpoison like? dwm: auchtemm 4167 00:00 0:00 1276K Sleep dwm
17 21:29:00 octavious what do i run to see memory usage
17 21:29:00 octavious just ps?
17 21:29:00 auchter i use plan9port's ps, but linux ps might have an option for it
17 21:29:00 tommost htop :)
17 21:30:00 auchter that works too
17 21:31:00 tommost Any excuse to open htop.
17 21:31:00 octavious need to figure out which column in ps output...
17 21:53:00 andy753421 i hate ps, and all it's damn options that change depending on whether you have a - in front of them..
17 21:53:00 tommost Indeed.
17 21:55:00 auchter ah, sanity: ps [ -pa ]
17 21:55:00 octavious has anyone tinkered with surfraw? sounds interesting
17 21:55:00 andy753421 that's lame, p9p ps uses gnu ps
17 21:56:00 auchter ...with a heavy dose of awk
17 21:58:00 auchter octavious: installing now...
17 21:58:00 octavious "[#rhlug] "
17 21:58:00 octavious bah..i give up on everything
17 22:00:00 auchter mmm, surfraw with "plumb" as the browser
17 22:02:00 octavious oh god, surfraw + yubnub...many layers of commandline excitement
17 22:04:00 auchter sr `sr -elvi | sed 's/\t.*//g' | dmenu`
17 22:04:00 auchter now that is awesome.
17 22:06:00 auchter umm... auchtemm 4163 00:00 0:04 158144K Sleep urxvtd
17 22:06:00 auchter that's completely unreasonable
17 22:19:00 andy753421 auchter: yep, i takes up about another 1.5 mb or so every time you open a window ;)
17 22:19:00 auchter i only have 7 windows open though
17 22:19:00 auchter and it's up to 170MB now
17 22:31:00 tommost If it helps, auchter, my gnome-terminal is taking 266 MB right now.
17 22:41:00 tommost I got a response on my slash-redirection ticket.
17 22:41:00 tommost "Yes, this is known currently and will be fixed. It is an artifact of the server upgrades. Thanks for the info."
17 22:42:00 Mishtal is that bad?
17 22:43:00 tommost I wouldn't say so.
17 22:43:00 Morasique :D i like the surfraw man page: "-graphical - Get some windowed sin. Default: no"
17 22:43:00 tommost I got a reply within hours; that's pretty good for IAIT.
17 22:43:00 Mishtal @everybody:::: does anyone know someone on AIM who goes by the handle "PosessedMIrror"?
17 22:44:00 Morasique i do now
17 22:44:00 tommost Do you want us all to message him?
17 22:44:00 Mishtal no
17 22:44:00 tommost :(
17 22:44:00 Mishtal it was a random message, thought it was suspiciously human life for a chatbot
17 22:44:00 Mishtal humanlike*
17 22:45:00 Mishtal sorry tom. we still like you the most
17 22:46:00 Morasique i rather like surfraw, it's like yubnub without the 40% downtime
17 23:14:00 tommost The stuff generated by gencups.rc should be world-readable, right?
17 23:17:00 auchter i'd say that likely depends on your umask
17 23:17:00 tommost Okay, I meant that, for printing to be possible, they need to be world-readable.
17 23:18:00 auchter i don't think so, looking at my /etc/cups directory, there isn't much in there that's world readable
17 23:19:00 auchter (i haven't set cups up yet, this is just how the package installs from portage)
17 23:19:00 tommost Hmmm.
17 23:19:00 tommost Because it isn't working for me.
17 23:19:00 tommost Maybe I need to log out or something? Not that that makes much sense.
17 23:20:00 auchter you could restart cups and see if that works
17 23:20:00 auchter anyway, i'm leaving now, let me know how it works
17 23:20:00 tommost See ya.
17 23:20:00 tommost Ah, now they show up.
17 23:30:00 Morasique ubuntu rather blows at cups for some reason, i had to restart it occasionally to make printers show up
17 23:31:00 tommost Well, I just added a prompt for doing so to my Python version of gencups.rc, so no problem. :)
17 23:43:00 tommost Ah, templates. They make everything better.
17 23:55:00 Morasique it's a little depressing that the recipes section of the lug wiki is way more popular than the linux section
17 23:55:00 tommost More popular?
17 23:57:00 Morasique more edited
17 23:57:00 tommost Are you referring to Andy's recent changes?
18 00:01:00 Morasique i didn't read them, but there were 6 new things on the recent changes list and they were all recipes stuff, as were the last couple dozen before that
18 00:01:00 tommost That was Andy changing everything to use templates.
18 00:04:00 Morasique ah. that's comforting then
18 00:09:00 Morasique Blazeix: speaking of "wanking walrus" as an ubuntu release name: http://www.reddit.com/info/6salu/comments/c04qe8g
18 00:13:00 Morasique Blazeix: also, i think it was you that wanted to do the PLP project in tex; this guy makes me proud: http://sdh33b.blogspot.com/2008/07/icfp-contest-2008.html
18 00:52:00 Morasique xkcd is fantastic
18 01:13:00 Morasique i'm convinced luglog hates us
18 01:13:00 Morasique sure, now it comes crawling back
18 03:46:00 Morasique emerging gcc takes forever
18 04:06:00 octavious dark knight is good
18 04:06:00 octavious :)
18 05:18:00 Morasique i'm tempted to go see it
18 12:39:00 Morasique wow. outlook responded to something i clicked *over an hour later*. i got annoyed after about 20 seconds and just switched virtual desktops, i had completely forgotten about it until a window suddenly popped up
18 13:26:00 auchter the openssl people like macros a little *too* much
18 13:35:00 Morasique all big C libraries are like that, it's disturbing
18 13:35:00 Morasique xerces and cppunit are both like 90% macros, i'm not sure if there's any actual functions anywhere
18 13:58:00 auchter heh, i just ended up running some of the headers through cpp(1) because all the backlashes to escape newlines were hurting me
18 13:59:00 Morasique i didn't even know you could run the preprocessor by itself
18 14:49:00 Morasique "Chris Hackleman <chackleman@arxan.com> has used the 'sudo' feature to access Bugzilla using your account. Chris Hackleman <chackleman@arxan.com> did not provide a reason for doing this."
18 14:49:00 Morasique comforting
18 15:00:00 Morasique There's a page on our wiki where people list their World of Warcraft names. I'm not sure if that's awesome or sad
18 15:09:00 andy753421 auchter: out of curiosity, how many amps can our motor controllers supply?
18 15:30:00 auchter theoretically they can handle bursts of >200A for short periods of time, sustained they can probably do over 150A
18 15:30:00 auchter i'd expect the traces to burn up though.
18 15:37:00 andy753421 alright
18 15:39:00 auchter any reason why?
18 15:39:00 andy753421 i was talking to one of the guys that works here about motor controllers earlier
18 15:40:00 andy753421 how much of that do we actually use?
18 15:40:00 auchter with no load, the motors draw around 4A
18 15:41:00 auchter i haven't actually seen what the current draw is like when trying to move anything
18 15:41:00 andy753421 ok
18 15:42:00 auchter they obviously draw considerably more at stall (as when the robot is not moving and then starts to move)
18 17:19:00 tommost So when I left for work today I suspended my laptop. I have no idea why.
18 17:23:00 tommost HOW DARE THEY: http://jboriss.wordpress.com/2008/07/16/control-tab-a-new-feature-for-firefox/
18 17:23:00 tommost Congrats, Firefox devs. You've just incorporated my number-one Opera annoyance as a "feature".
18 17:24:00 auchter ah, semi-santity: Mozilla Firefox 2.0.0.15
18 17:25:00 tommost You should work on auchtery.
18 17:25:00 auchter i have other things to work on, and it would suck anyway
18 17:26:00 auchter implementing quick hinting would be a pain, for example, and i just don't care enough
18 17:26:00 tommost Mmm.
18 17:26:00 tommost Did you see my Python version of gencups.rc?
18 17:27:00 tommost I figured it would be useful for the LUG Ubuntu disk.
18 17:27:00 auchter no, i didn't, but i was thinking stuff like that would best be for after the install is done
18 17:27:00 auchter i don't see the point in making the disk do more, just less
18 17:28:00 tommost What do you mean? Should there be a Rose printer .deb?
18 17:29:00 auchter no, i think that would be overkill, but i had pictured a script (which would inevitably invoke other scripts) to do the setup
18 17:29:00 tommost Oh, yeah, that's what I meant.
18 17:29:00 tommost What do you mean by "less"?
18 17:30:00 auchter i meant that the stuff probably shouldn't be included on the ubuntu install disk, and that if we do decide to modify the installer, to just get rid of the options that everyone is going to set anyway
18 17:30:00 auchter though i don't even think that would be that helpful
18 17:31:00 tommost Then what's the point of having our own disk?
18 17:31:00 tommost Why not just distribute a different one with our scripts?
18 17:31:00 auchter that's what i meant when i said that modifying the install disk would not be helpful
18 17:32:00 tommost Ah, okay.
18 17:32:00 auchter i think that's actually what you meant by "LUG Ubuntu disk", i just misunderstood
18 17:33:00 tommost No, I actually meant an install disk with extra stuff on it, like AFS, etc. But whatever.
18 17:33:00 auchter yes, i think that's a good idea
18 17:34:00 auchter i had initially misunderstood, and my language parsing skills aren't up to the task today
18 17:35:00 tommost Now I'm confused. Which are you advocating? a) A complete Ubuntu install disk with Rose-specific extras or b) A disk of extras that is used after Ubuntu has been installed.
18 17:37:00 auchter b, and i'm just as confused as you are
18 17:37:00 tommost Okay, now we're clear.
18 17:37:00 auchter what are you advocating? i thought you were advocating b
18 17:37:00 andy753421 `wget -q -O - http://lug.phire.org/ubunti_postinstall.sh | sh'?
18 17:38:00 tommost I was thinking a), but I don't really care.
18 17:38:00 tommost Both are good.
18 17:38:00 auchter andy753421: that'd be rather nice, but i'd be wary of running something like that as root (as some things would have to)
18 17:39:00 andy753421 yea.. especially if it has spelling errors ;)
18 17:40:00 andy753421 although, that's not really any less secure than running postinstall scripts off the livecd
18 17:40:00 auchter with me in control of the dns entries it is ;)
18 17:41:00 andy753421 i imagine you could be in control of printing CD's as well..
18 17:41:00 andy753421 we could always have them download something and then md5sum it
18 17:41:00 auchter what if lug.dhcp.rose-hulman.edu goes down, someone else does dhcpcd -h ...
18 17:42:00 auchter yeah, i agree, and it'd be easier than making cds
18 17:42:00 andy753421 yea, I don't really expect we'll need 700Mb of postinstall scripts either
18 17:43:00 auchter i hope not...
18 17:43:00 tommost Yeah, plus we'll want to apt-get packages anyway.
18 17:44:00 andy753421 another advantage of having a default livecd and then a postinstall script of some sorts is that it's easier for people to install on their own, and/or use with non-ubuntu
18 17:45:00 Morasique the .deb idea got shot down really fast, but that's not a bad idea. it could be hosted on lug.phire.org and just have a deb:// link to it off the install page. it could have dependencies for all the things we want to install, like cups, and have a post-install script that does whatever we wanted the script you're talking about now do
18 17:45:00 tommost Yeah. I'm sure that someone out there uses Kubuntu or the like.
18 17:45:00 tommost I have no idea how to make a .deb.
18 17:45:00 Morasique it's really easy, there's a tool for it
18 17:45:00 Morasique you make a manifest file and run the tool, that's about it
18 17:46:00 tommost Awesome.
18 17:46:00 tommost You've been elected the .deb maker.
18 17:46:00 Morasique well, i think the deb idea was frowned on
18 17:46:00 Morasique i'm not sure why though
18 17:46:00 andy753421 I'll make an ebuild!
18 17:46:00 tommost Whee!
18 17:46:00 andy753421 we should have a gentoo-lug overlay ;)
18 17:47:00 auchter that's actually an excellent idea
18 17:47:00 Morasique ebuilds are rather brilliantly simple, debs aren't quite that good
18 17:47:00 tommost What's an overlay?
18 17:47:00 auchter you know, with hardware known, and the common software people need, gentoo could be even easier than ubuntu...
18 17:47:00 andy753421 the gentoo name for a second repository that you can get packages from
18 17:47:00 auchter it sure as hell has a better package system
18 17:48:00 Morasique i think gentoo would be much easier than ubuntu, until people want to install new things outside the installfest stuff
18 17:48:00 andy753421 meh, apt isn't to bad
18 17:48:00 andy753421 Morasique: why would that be hard?
18 17:48:00 auchter i like use flags.
18 17:48:00 tommost And until they realize, "hey, it takes even longer to install programs under Linux than Windows".
18 17:48:00 auchter Morasique: yeah, apt-get vs. emerge...
18 17:48:00 Morasique andy753421: stuff like configuring /etc/make.conf and running things from the terminal aren't the most user-friendly things
18 17:48:00 Morasique ubuntu lets you install stuff without touching a terminal
18 17:48:00 andy753421 Morasique: emerge porthole
18 17:49:00 tommost Not that it isn't better in some ways, but most people don't want to mess with that.
18 17:49:00 Morasique although i imagine there's probably a synaptic-like tool that nobody uses for gentoo
18 17:49:00 Morasique oh. is that what porthole is?
18 17:49:00 tommost Synaptic is pretty bad, I think.
18 17:49:00 Morasique i never used it much, but it seemed good
18 17:49:00 Morasique what's bad about it?
18 17:50:00 tommost Crufty UI.
18 17:50:00 tommost It feels bloated.
18 17:50:00 tommost Also, slow.
18 17:51:00 Morasique i agree with the slow part, that was a pain
18 18:39:00 andy753421 I need to write more C, i'm getting out of practice and making stupid mistakes :(
18 19:10:00 andy753421 mk needs to have a different sets of rules for prereqs and build scripts
18 19:11:00 andy753421 it's not as clean, but it'd be a lot more convenient.. maybe GNU mk will do it ;)
18 19:13:00 andy753421 %.csv: %.dat: ./build-%.rc
18 19:13:00 andy753421 $build < $prereq > $target
18 19:15:00 andy753421 and some way of doing re-builds when the mkfile changes
18 19:15:00 Morasique alias vim="emacs" should come default in every ~/.profile
18 19:16:00 auchter andy753421: can't you just put mkfile as a prereq?
18 19:16:00 andy753421 yea, but then you can't use $prereq anymore :'(
18 19:16:00 auchter and i think you're just doing too many crazy things with mk, haha
18 19:16:00 andy753421 hey, my mkfile for this summer is only ~100 lines long ;)
18 19:17:00 auchter wow. you have a link to that?
18 19:17:00 andy753421 hehe, i'll post it in a minute
18 19:31:00 andy753421 http://andy753421.ath.cx/mkfile.html
18 19:32:00 auchter woah, colorized as well
18 19:32:00 andy753421 the unicode wasn't showing up in http://andy753421.ath.cx/mkfile..
18 19:33:00 auchter yeah, that's one crazy mkfile
18 19:33:00 andy753421 :TOHtml :)
18 19:33:00 andy753421 er, i mean :TOhtml
18 19:33:00 auchter very nice indeed...
18 19:34:00 auchter i really only use mk for C stuff, in which case <$PLAN9/src/mkhdr and <$PLAN9/src/mkone make life excellent
18 19:34:00 andy753421 the combined.csv rules it the best :)
18 19:36:00 auchter haha, indeed. i've wondered for a while why MKSHELL=sh by default...
18 19:36:00 andy753421 yea.. I should look into the plan9 header stuff
18 19:36:00 andy753421 'cause it's p9p :(
18 19:36:00 auchter yeah, but i mean it comes with rc...
18 19:36:00 andy753421 true
18 19:36:00 auchter anyway, i need to get something to eat.
18 19:37:00 auchter when i get back: patch to make fetchmail use factotum ;)
18 19:37:00 auchter (once i struggle through this autoconf hell.)
18 19:38:00 andy753421 hm.. i'll have to read about factotum sometime
19 00:27:00 tommost Okay, zsh's tab completion of fusermount -u just seriously impressed me.
19 00:28:00 auchter i need to switch to that sometime soon.
19 00:29:00 Mishta1 tommost your compiz suggestion worked great. unrelated: do you know of a reason why ubuntu wont free space even after i remove over 1 GB of media? i currently, according to ubuntu, have 0 bytes of freespace and rm ing stuff doesnt seem to help....
19 00:29:00 tommost Free space on what?
19 00:30:00 Mishta1 /home
19 00:30:00 auchter try `sync'
19 00:30:00 Mishta1 no luc
19 00:30:00 Mishta1 luck*
19 00:30:00 auchter what are you using to check that?
19 00:30:00 Mishta1 df
19 00:31:00 tommost I've been using df just now and it's working fine for me.
19 00:31:00 auchter yes, i hardly think it's a df problem.
19 00:32:00 Mishta1 well, my /home partition SHOULD be full, i know that it was when i turned my laptop on. but now it wont allow me to remove files and reclaim the space
19 00:32:00 auchter what do you mean by "won't allow you to remove"
19 00:33:00 Mishta1 meaning i did "rm -rf files_to_delete"
19 00:33:00 Mishta1 which contained something on the order of 1 gb of old crap
19 00:33:00 Mishta1 and df is still reporting 0 bytes free
19 00:34:00 auchter strange.
19 00:34:00 Mishta1 indeed
19 00:34:00 auchter are you using reiserfs? it's pretty good at hiding things, but eventually gives in given enough reason to
19 00:34:00 Mishta1 maybe a broken filesystem, the freespace table might have been ruined omehow.
19 00:34:00 Mishta1 Ext3
19 00:35:00 auchter that was a (admittedly pathetic) joke.
19 00:35:00 Mishta1 eh
19 00:36:00 Mishta1 its a little concerning
19 00:36:00 Mishta1 it seems that the kernal doesnt seem to be accessing my cooling fans via acpi, and now my harddrive seems to have disappeared a gig or two of diskspace
19 00:36:00 Mishta1 -.-
19 00:37:00 auchter try unmounting and remounting
19 00:37:00 Mishta1 im going to shut down for the night soon
19 00:37:00 Mishta1 though, do you have any problems with linux turning your cooling fans on?
19 00:38:00 Mishta1 i recently realized that i havnt heard my cooling fans accellerate past "spin really really slow" for a while
19 00:38:00 auchter no issues here
19 00:39:00 Mishta1 they spin up when the system is hot and spin down when its cool?
19 00:39:00 Mishta1 wonderful, i guess a trip to IAIT is in my future
19 00:39:00 auchter that's kind of how they're designed to work
19 00:40:00 Mishta1 no doubt. aside from the fact that mine dont seem to
19 00:40:00 Mishta1 lol
19 00:41:00 auchter heh, my migration to mutt + maildrop + spamassasin + fetchmail is going well
19 00:42:00 auchter spamassassin has so far marked every message sent by angel as spam
19 00:42:00 tommost Hehe.
19 00:42:00 Mishta1 lol
19 00:42:00 tommost You should document the process on the LUG wiki.
19 00:42:00 auchter andy started to, but i think he forgot about it
19 00:46:00 auchter why does angel not put a To: field in the headers of the messages it sends?
19 00:48:00 tommost Good question.
19 00:48:00 tommost Perhaps it has some sort of bizzare symbiotic relationship with Exchange.
19 00:49:00 auchter two pieces of software that disgusting have to be related somehow...
19 02:58:00 andy753421 so I'm thinking about putting together a new computer
19 02:59:00 andy753421 does anyone know much about server cases?
19 03:01:00 andy753421 I.e. would it be possible to take the parts out of my current computer and put them in a rackmount case?
19 12:12:00 auchter andy753421: that shouldn't be a problem, assuming the rackmount case you're putting it into is 3u or 4u
19 12:13:00 auchter andy753421: likely the only problem you'd encounter is the cutout in the back possibly not matching the locations of the serial ports, keyboard mouse ports, &c. of your motherboard
19 14:01:00 auchter woah, my sounds has gone mad
19 14:01:00 auchter s/sounds/sound/
19 14:01:00 auchter this is the trippest thing i've heard in a while, especially the gradual onset of it... i hadly noticed it until now
19 14:01:00 auchter i'm blaming alsa for this
19 16:22:00 auchter hah, that was awesome
19 16:22:00 auchter i went to the store to get some ground lamb. i walk up to the meat counter and ask the butcher for it
19 16:23:00 auchter he says to me "GNU's not unix" (i was wearing a linux shirt at the time)
19 16:23:00 auchter so i asked him if he was a linux user, and he responds "you could say that. when i'm not hacking up animals, i'm a debian developer."
19 17:40:00 Morasique auchter: about your angel question from yesterday with the empty To field, there's an option when you send e-mails through angel to hide recipients, most professors leave it on
19 17:40:00 Morasique also i second tommost's suggestion to document the mutt switch, i plan on doing that sometime soon
19 17:46:00 auchter Morasique: that's what the BCC field is for...
19 17:49:00 Morasique it probably just uses all your To addresses as BCC if you have the option on
19 17:58:00 andy753421 oh yea, guess I did forget about that :)
19 17:59:00 auchter andy753421: are you using maildrop or procmail?
19 18:00:00 andy753421 maildrop, it's much better
19 18:00:00 auchter ok, yeah, that's what i'm using right now as well
19 18:01:00 andy753421 mainly because when you screw up the config file and it doesn't parse correctly maildrop will return an error to fetchmail
19 18:01:00 auchter this is kind of outside its scope, but is there a way to make it go through an existing maildir and reevaluate its rules?
19 18:01:00 andy753421 then fetchmail leaves the messages queued on the server instead of deleting it
19 18:01:00 auchter i.e. resort things into new mailboxes
19 18:01:00 auchter andy753421: yeah, i've been using fetchmail -k for now anyway...
19 18:02:00 andy753421 yea, that's what I do too, but with maildrop it will still be marked as unread so it'll download when you fix the syntax issue (or other bug)
19 18:02:00 auchter ah, ok
19 18:10:00 andy753421 maildrop just reads from stdin so you can do `maildrop < message'
19 18:11:00 andy753421 but that will duplicate `message' since it saves a copy and leave the original
19 18:12:00 auchter yeah, i already did that (copied my maildir to a new location, then fed the messages back to maildrop)
19 18:12:00 andy753421 so you can either copy the existing maildir, resort everthing, then delete it
19 18:12:00 auchter it was unreasonably slow for some reason
19 18:12:00 andy753421 oh, that's probably because of spamassasin
19 18:13:00 auchter ah, i'll turn that off next time i try then.
19 18:17:00 andy753421 tommost_aorist: I hate your damn pre's everywhere!
19 18:24:00 auchter speaking of the wiki, for the eateries section, does it make sense to have each place be on its own page? i think it'd be easier to look at if all the info was all on one page (similar to the course list page)
19 18:25:00 andy753421 maybe, depends on how much info we want to put on each page
19 18:26:00 andy753421 On another wiki i've used we also have courses but each of them has it's own page and sections for things like 'teaching style', and options on it
19 18:26:00 auchter yeah, i was just thinking out loud
19 18:26:00 auchter one thing that would be awesome is to have photos of the menus for each place
19 18:28:00 octavious auchter: you invite the butcher to the LUG?
19 18:28:00 auchter haha, it's a bit of a drive from here
19 19:03:00 Morasique you could do a synopsis on one page with a link to a main page, that's how wikipedia does it
19 19:44:00 andy753421 I've found it Arthor! http://lug.phire.org/wiki/Template:Nowiki
19 19:44:00 andy753421 tommost_aorist: may your <pre>'s be banished to all eternity!
19 19:45:00 Morasique er. why don't you just wrap whatever you want in <nowiki>?
19 19:46:00 andy753421 Lies, Damned Lies!
19 19:46:00 Morasique i see
19 19:48:00 andy753421 It works! It Works I Tell You, It Works!
19 19:48:00 andy753421 muhahaha, times for 50+ edits
19 19:48:00 Morasique :D
19 19:49:00 Morasique you could try to cleverly do it in one SQL statement, but that might not end well
19 20:07:00 andy753421 oow, it only mostly works, = still breaks things :'(
19 20:10:00 Morasique it looks right on [[Kerberos]], what's wrong?
19 20:11:00 andy753421 it uses <nowiki>
19 20:11:00 andy753421 the point of {{nowiki}} is that it can be used from within templates to <nowiki> the text passed to it
19 20:13:00 Morasique oh, i see, i missed the point completely
19 20:25:00 andy753421 whatever, it's close enough to make me happy
19 20:40:00 Morasique we can make our own afs groups. i really should've figured this out years ago
19 21:02:00 auchter what would you use them for?
19 21:02:00 Morasique anytime i need to share stuff on afs with people over time
19 21:02:00 Morasique my 371 group comes to mind
19 21:02:00 Morasique we did our whole project on afs
19 21:03:00 Morasique Blazeix sucks at staying connected
19 21:05:00 auchter i've always just used subversion. though i suppose the OldFiles on afs would be nice for when people don't check things into subversion
19 21:05:00 auchter glares at Blazeix
19 21:06:00 andy753421 Morasique: what's wrong with just giving the group members access to the files individually?
19 21:06:00 andy753421 well, i suppose a group is a little nicer..
19 21:12:00 Morasique well that's what i did, technically you never need groups then, but it seems logical to group them if i'm assigning permissions because they're all in the same 371 group
19 21:16:00 Morasique auchter: i would prefer subversion, but i feel bad making people use it if they don't normally
19 21:17:00 auchter hm, i thought it was pretty universally used at rose
19 21:23:00 Morasique no, just in some CS classes, but we had somebody that had never used it
19 21:55:00 octavious hmm. the more i examine git, the more i like it. remove the idea of a central depo at all...
19 21:56:00 Morasique i never really understood how it could work without a central depo, it seemed suspicious
19 21:56:00 Morasique but people use it all the time, so apparently it works somehow
19 21:56:00 octavious there is a google talk somewhere with Linus talking about git, i found it very interesting
20 00:00:00 andy753421 There. I documentated on local mail and mutt.
20 00:02:00 auchter looks nice... would have been helpful to have this yesterday
20 00:02:00 andy753421 auchter, Morasique, tommost_aorist: You should fill in [[HOWTO Local mail]] with more step-by-step instructions on how to switch from thunderbird/evolution/outlook to local mail and mutt.
20 00:02:00 Morasique auchter: obviously he likes me more than you
20 00:02:00 andy753421 Morasique: nah, you just whine more :P
20 00:03:00 Morasique well, it amounts to the same thing
20 00:03:00 auchter andy753421: how are you creating the subfolders of $HOME/mail ?
20 00:04:00 andy753421 oh, i forgot to add that, i need to type up a lengthy discussion on how to organize mail folders
20 00:04:00 auchter indeed... i used maildirmake -f rose $HOME/Mail, and it created $HOME/Mail/.rose ...
20 00:05:00 andy753421 so those are some strange maildir extension or something, i don't remember exactly why, but I remember not liking it
20 00:06:00 andy753421 anyway, my ~/.mail is just a normal unix folder, I do all my hierarchical sorting with normal folder and then mail a separate maildir for each mailbox
20 00:07:00 andy753421 so i have ~/mail/{misc,class,mass,etc} which are all maildirs (misc is the default)
20 00:08:00 andy753421 then i have ~/mail/lists which is a folder, and ~/mail/lists/{major,mass,weka,etc} for mailing lists (i lied earlier, mass is under ~/mail/lists)
20 00:08:00 auchter ah, interesting. that makes more sense to me than the way i was doing it
20 00:08:00 andy753421 now here's the complicated part ;)
20 00:09:00 auchter it seemed counter-intuitive to have ~/Mail/^(cur new tmp .rose .other)
20 00:09:00 auchter with .rose having cur new tmp, etc.
20 00:09:00 andy753421 yea, that might have been what I didn't like, I don't remember
20 00:10:00 andy753421 cur,new,tmp are aways going to be there though, there's nothing you can do about that..
20 00:10:00 andy753421 but under ever maildir I have a .keep (made with maildirmake -f keep <path>)
20 00:10:00 auchter not in ~/Mail/, though, which is what i didn't like
20 00:11:00 andy753421 and I have a folder-hook and a macro set up so that when I hit 's' to save a message it goes to ~/<folder>/.keep
20 00:12:00 andy753421 likewise CTRL-K changes to the .keep folder
20 00:12:00 andy753421 and then I have another folder hook to set 'record' to '^' (the current folder) so that my sent messages get threaded along with replies and such
20 00:16:00 andy753421 I think http://www.pastey.net/91641 are the relevant lines of ~/.muttrc
20 00:17:00 andy753421 (that also includes a trashcan)
20 00:17:00 auchter seems to be more complicated than i want ;)
20 00:17:00 andy753421 hehe, yea it was complicated..
20 00:17:00 andy753421 what exactly did you want?
20 00:19:00 auchter to read my email, haha. my current mutt situation seems to be fine, i can't really think of a reason for the keep and trash, since i never delete email
20 00:19:00 andy753421 the folder-hooks are because 1: '^' gets expanded when it is typed not when it is used, and 2: to make the actions for trash different if you're permanently deleting trash
20 00:20:00 andy753421 well, 'trash' is for spam and all campus mails mostly, but it keeps it around incase I screw up somehow
20 00:21:00 andy753421 and .keep is just to hide the messages
20 00:21:00 andy753421 I try to keep the messages in the main maildir limited to things that currently need my attention, sortof like a TODO list
20 00:21:00 andy753421 so once I'm done with whatever the message is about I move it to .keep
20 00:21:00 andy753421 that also make the mailboxes load faster :)
20 00:22:00 auchter ah, you're much more organized than i am then
20 00:22:00 auchter i need to stop using volatile storage for things i need to remember...
20 00:23:00 andy753421 hehe, yea I used to have everything in the inbox, and then archive them in separate folders, but then I decided I wanted maildrop to do that for me so I needed to change things
20 00:23:00 andy753421 although, I would highly suggest `folder-hook .* 'set record="^"''
20 00:24:00 andy753421 although that's less useful when you have people who top-reply and leave the entire message quoted :'(
20 00:25:00 auchter ah, top posting. why haven't people stopped that yet?
20 00:26:00 auchter lotus notes' "reply with history" does it by default, and doesn't really give you the ability to reply in a sane way
20 00:27:00 andy753421 yea.. although, i do top reply sometimes
20 00:27:00 auchter reading through some emails with 20 top-posted replies gets old quickly. scroll to the bottom, read the message, scroll up until the top of next message is encountered, scroll down to read it, scroll up to the next message, ad naseum
20 00:27:00 Morasique it seems like it'd be pretty doable to write a script that parsed a message and reversed the ordering
20 00:28:00 andy753421 Morasique: it's not really the order that annoys me, it's that people leave the entire message quoted
20 00:29:00 Morasique you might be able to get rid of that too, although that'd be harder. the order is annoying for the reason auchter said though, that gets old on work e-mails where the threads get really long
20 00:30:00 andy753421 yea, i don't ever really bottom-reply though..
20 00:31:00 andy753421 i either do a point-by-point reply, or top reply and cut off everything but the most recent message
20 00:31:00 andy753421 leaving the most recent message is annoying but it's a bit of a compromise for people who don't properly thread their e-mails
20 00:33:00 Morasique i don't think i ever leave the original message, but i always top post because everyone else does, and i've had threads where people mix them, it doesn't end well
20 00:34:00 Morasique glares at povilusr
20 00:34:00 andy753421 Morasique: how do you top-post if you don't leave the original message?
20 00:37:00 Morasique oh, i think i misunderstood you. i leave the thread the way it was, but i don't re-quote the last message like some people do
20 00:37:00 Morasique ah, i get the "cut off everything" thing you said. i don't do that, i leave the whole thread there still
20 00:37:00 Morasique so i would annoy you. we should not e-mail
20 00:38:00 andy753421 probably, do you have a lengthy signature automatically added, and would you put my name on the first line?
20 00:39:00 Morasique my work signature is long, but it copies everyone elses, my normal signature is short. and no, i hate when people add small talk to e-mails, it rather defeats the point
20 00:39:00 Morasique (i file things like "hello" and names as small talk)
20 00:39:00 andy753421 ok, names and signatures just piss me off because there's already a To: and From: header
20 00:40:00 Morasique that's true. i'm not sure why i sign e-mails come to think of it
20 00:41:00 andy753421 I usually do put 'Hello, ' if it's the first message in a completely unrelated thread or if i'm asking a question
20 00:41:00 andy753421 sort of to say 'hey, i've never talked to you before'
20 00:41:00 auchter at work, without fail, people always send emails with the recipient's name on the first line. also, they sign them using their name and extension
20 00:43:00 Morasique people always put their position and extension in signatures, which is fairly useless when the identical information appears in the built-in outlook address book, as well as the communicator we're all required to use
20 00:43:00 andy753421 I bet back in 1993 there was some stupid class on `netiquette' that told people to do that
20 00:43:00 Morasique everyone just transferred their phone habits to e-mail
20 00:43:00 Morasique phones don't have From: fields and address books
20 00:44:00 andy753421 see also: letters
20 00:44:00 auchter shudders at remembering people having instructions on how to leave a message on their answering machine in the message itself
20 00:44:00 andy753421 but i'm not sure what the point of that is either becuase letters do have to and from fields
20 00:45:00 auchter andy753421: the envelope normally gets discarded after opening
20 00:46:00 andy753421 auchter: really? that makes sense, but I always keep my letters in their envelopes..
20 00:49:00 auchter i usually throw out the envelope, as it really doesn't contain any useful information
20 00:49:00 auchter i usually rip it to shreds in the opening process anyway...
20 00:50:00 andy753421 yea, i don't really keep regular letters to long, but when I do i tend to use the envelope as a storage mechanism
20 00:51:00 Morasique auchter: :D nice circular reasoning. you don't have the from information because you discard the envelope, and you discard the envelope because it doesn't contain any useful information
20 00:53:00 andy753421 haha, yea, but regardless, the information density of the envelope would be much lower
20 00:53:00 auchter no, all letters i've receieved contain both to and from in the content (paper) contained within the envelope
20 00:53:00 auchter making the envelope's data redundant
20 00:54:00 andy753421 auchter: I think this only applies to when you write letters
20 00:57:00 auchter i think i remember why i stopped buying low-end networking stuff until recently... through this 100Mb/s switch, i'm currently transferring at 2.5MB/s.
20 00:58:00 auchter with nothing else on this network. it's rather sad.
20 01:28:00 Morasique pastey has a rather impressive array of languages
20 01:29:00 auchter no rc...
20 01:30:00 auchter someone should write a paste site which just passes everything though vim with TOhtml, and if the language isn't there, allow uploads of vim syntax files
20 01:31:00 andy753421 well, they've already got the 2nd half.. http://www.vim.org/scripts/script_search_results.php?keywords=&script_type=syntax&order_by=rating&direction=descending&search=search
20 01:33:00 auchter no, i meant upload a syntax script for generating the html of the paste
20 01:45:00 Morasique has anybody used both xmonad and awesome?
20 02:03:00 octavious Morasique: i have tried them both, yes
20 02:05:00 andy753421 now that we're sort of a club, I think i'm going to inquire to IAIT about getting the lug.rose-hulman.edu subdomain
20 02:06:00 Morasique octavious: any recommendations on one or the other? i'm considering switching to xmonad
20 02:06:00 Morasique andy753421: just going to redirect to lug.phire.org?
20 02:07:00 andy753421 well, i would like to get the entire domain, so we can have plan9.lug.rose-hulman.edu and such
20 02:07:00 octavious Morasique: hmm, they are both pretty similar. the configuration files are in haskell, which i thought made them confusing
20 02:07:00 andy753421 it'd be nice to have something rose-hulman affiliated too
20 02:08:00 Morasique octavious: i like haskell though. i'm mainly considering switching because it's looking like awesome doesn't support custom layouts, and xmonad does
20 02:11:00 andy753421 i wonder if it's more effective to send an email to helpdesk@rose-hulman.edu or to submit a ticket, or are those the same?
20 02:12:00 Morasique helpdesk is checked by a person, but i'm pretty sure they'll just turn it into a ticket right away
20 04:42:00 Morasique wow. xmonad and awesome really are pretty much identical, one of them is a clone of the other, or they're both clones of dwm, i'm not sure
20 04:42:00 Morasique they even have identical configuration files, albeit in different languages, and xmonad's is much more heavily commented, which is helping me understand some of the awesome configuration lines i didn't get before
20 07:56:00 andy753421 yay plan 9 support: http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DQ35JO/DQ35JO-overview.htm
20 07:56:00 andy753421 now I just need to figure out what to do for a processor..
20 10:23:00 povilusr_desktop anyone know how to make ping show the time the packet was sent?
20 10:29:00 povilusr_desktop weve been having short (20 sec to 5 min) outages on our cable modem and i want to record them so i can tell time waraner when they are and how ofren they occur because they say that cannot fix it
20 10:29:00 povilusr_desktop anyone got any ideas on how to do that?
20 10:29:00 povilusr_desktop i was trying to ping every 30 seconds
20 10:30:00 povilusr_desktop but there are no time stamps so i have no idea when the outages are occuring
20 11:42:00 Morasique povilusr_desktop: you could do something like this: http://pastey.net/91691
20 11:58:00 povilusr_temp thankx Morasique, but is there a way to make them all in one file?
20 11:58:00 povilusr_temp like date, time, ping header
20 11:58:00 povilusr_temp is seams like i should remember how to do that but i cannot
20 11:58:00 povilusr_temp wait nm
20 12:13:00 povilusr_temp there anyway to make it not print the header and the footer theres -q that only prints the header and the footer
20 12:16:00 povilusr_temp also im using http://www.pastey.net/91699
20 12:16:00 povilusr_temp how do i make it redirect stderr and stdout not just stdout so i get all messages not just sucesfull ones
20 12:17:00 Morasique you could pipe ping through grep "packet loss" to get just the line you care about, and change >> to &>> to get stderr too
20 12:20:00 povilusr_temp rgr
20 13:12:00 auchter the coding standards post on slashdot is kind of interesting.
20 13:12:00 auchter does anyone here have to follow any standards?
20 13:39:00 auchter andy753421: i definitely hope that we can get *.lug.rose-hulman.edu
20 13:48:00 Morasique auchter: we don't have coding standards where i work, but i think that's fairly odd
20 13:51:00 auchter there aren't any in the department that i'm in either, which i did think was odd as well
20 13:52:00 Morasique i try to mimic the code around where i'm writing, but there are two main developers on my project who disagree about everything, so instead i have to try and guess who's going to review my code and target their personal preferences
20 13:52:00 auchter as far as indenting, most styles don't bother me much, but i cannot stand this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indent_style#Whitesmiths_style
20 13:52:00 auchter which also seems to be what the openssl developers like...
20 13:54:00 Morasique i hate basically all of them from whitesmith down on that page, they're distracting. i like braces on the same line, but everyone else likes them on their own line so that's what i've been doing this summer
20 15:48:00 Morasique this never occurred to me: http://jonathanhedley.com/articles/2008/04/mouse-sensors
20 17:15:00 Mishtal http://rick.vanrein.org/linux/badram/ : some of you may find this interesting
20 17:20:00 Morasique that's a good idea
20 17:20:00 andy753421 I stopped reading that when it started talking about emotional attachments to mice or something
20 17:21:00 Mishtal andy753421: i have no idea what your talking about....
20 17:22:00 andy753421 oh, i that was for Morasique's link
20 17:23:00 Mishtal oh
20 17:45:00 Morasique where is 9menu in portage? is it part of plan9port?
20 17:50:00 auchter Morasique: no, it's not part of plan9port
20 17:51:00 Morasique is it anywhere? i can't find it
20 17:51:00 auchter it may not be, i've never used it
20 17:52:00 Morasique ok
20 17:53:00 auchter Morasique: what did you need it for?
20 18:12:00 auchter is austin relying on carrier pigeons for packet transport? half of my screen is timeouts, haha
20 18:16:00 andy753421 auchter: http://pastie.org/237563
20 18:17:00 andy753421 apparently urxvtd's memory leaks are firefox style memory leaks ;)
20 18:17:00 andy753421 i.e. it's keeping pointers around to unused memory
20 18:22:00 auchter is this a recent problem with urxvtd? i don't recall it using this much memory on my last installation
20 18:22:00 andy753421 it might be, i'm not sure
20 18:23:00 andy753421 looking though the changelog there seems to be a few memory leak fixes so I figured that they wouldn't leave something that bad in
20 18:23:00 auchter yeah... one would hope not
20 18:24:00 auchter i've been getting lazy recently and use a garbage collector (libgc)
20 18:26:00 Morasique gasps in horror
20 18:26:00 auchter haha, why is it that horrifying?
20 18:29:00 Morasique it's not, i'm a fan. i would expect you to be horrified by it though, C people don't like garbage collection
20 18:29:00 Morasique i suspect because it's too easy
20 18:36:00 Morasique i think the only thing more annoying than articles about awesome saying "and one awesome (no pun intended) thing" is articles saying "and one awesome (pun intended) thing"
20 18:38:00 auchter i've never seen the point of awesome.
20 18:38:00 auchter actually, it's probably that i just hate the arrogant name
20 18:43:00 Morasique what do you use?
20 18:43:00 Morasique i hate the name, it's a pain to search for. it's so similar to xmonad half the time i just search for that instead and find the same answer
20 18:44:00 auchter i use dwm
20 19:28:00 Mishtal ext3fs. im running a live cd to make it easier to fix my /home partition. using "df" from terminal as root, i have /dev/sda2 82377328 78358500 0 100% /home/ubuntu/Public
20 19:29:00 Mishtal i think that there maybe shouldnt be a difference between my total space - my used space (first and second number) compared with aailable space (third number, 0)
20 19:30:00 andy753421 used is probably used by files or something
20 19:30:00 Mishtal anyone happen to have a suggestion?
20 19:30:00 Mishtal well, yea. used space is what it should be
20 19:31:00 Mishtal but sda2 isnt full its got well over a gigabyte free
20 19:31:00 andy753421 it's probably a GB of headers and stuff
20 19:31:00 Mishtal for some reason the filesystem isnt showing freespace
20 19:31:00 Mishtal so... no, i just removed over 2 gigs of files before asking
20 19:31:00 andy753421 ah, then you're screwed
20 19:31:00 Mishtal and its still saying straight up 0 freespace
20 19:31:00 andy753421 it's a problem with ext2
20 19:31:00 Mishtal yea
20 19:32:00 Mishtal ok
20 19:32:00 Mishtal so this is a known issue???
20 19:32:00 andy753421 that's actually _the_ reason I switched to reiserfs
20 19:32:00 andy753421 yes
20 19:32:00 Mishtal well
20 19:32:00 Mishtal shit
20 19:32:00 andy753421 it's probably fixable, but I don't know how
20 19:32:00 Mishtal nor do i
20 19:34:00 Mishtal do you happen to know the bug number on ext3's bug tracker?
20 19:35:00 andy753421 i'm not sure, i think it might be a design flaw or something
20 19:37:00 Mishtal hmm
20 19:38:00 Mishtal its interesting that Gparted recognizes that sda2 has several Gigs of freespace
20 19:38:00 Mishtal im just going to resize it, and hope for the best
20 19:39:00 andy753421 try using debugfs or fsck first
20 19:42:00 andy753421 also, tune2fs
20 19:43:00 Morasique you should probably backup first, resizing a partition that's apparently corrupted probably isn't a great idea
20 19:50:00 Mishtal none of the information on it is hard to replace.
20 19:51:00 andy753421 Mishtal: if you have a spare disk or partition just tarball the everthing, reformat, and then untar it
20 19:52:00 Mishtal andy753421: i would do that, however, my only spare harddrive is sitting in ferralj's desktop, and i lack the sata connectors for it at the moment, they are still in transit via fedex
20 19:52:00 andy753421 Mishtal: netcat?
20 19:52:00 andy753421 (or rsync..)
20 19:53:00 Mishtal you mean push the files onto his desktop via internet?
20 19:53:00 Mishtal the drive isnt plugged in, and i dont want to bug him.
20 19:53:00 andy753421 alright
20 19:54:00 Mishtal actually, its too late anyway. i already started the operating about 10 minutes ago
20 20:02:00 Morasique Mishtal: well, if you're using gparted like you mentioned before it runs a simulation first, so you could cancel it, but it sounds like it doesn't matter
20 20:38:00 Mishtal Morasique: the simulation succeeded. i dont believe that the filesystem is broken so much as confused. if this doesnt work, i was planning to reinstall from iso before term started anyway, an extra half hour of effort isnt a big deal
20 22:39:00 Mishtal andy753421: Morasique: using gparted to resize the partition worked. thanks for the help
20 23:21:00 Morasique you can use num lock as a modifier key. that's cool
20 23:22:00 octaviou3 yeah, i use it to modify the behavior of the numpad
20 23:23:00 octaviou3 okay, i am an asshole.
21 00:39:00 rr72 w00t w00t in speed
21 00:53:00 tommost rr72: So why are you celebrating?
21 00:54:00 rr72 better then other ones
21 00:54:00 tommost As a former resident, I have to say that that isn't true.
21 00:55:00 tommost Deming is better because it's closer, and BSB is better still because it's closer and *has girls*.
21 00:55:00 rr72 isnt speed right next to bsb?
21 00:56:00 tommost Yes, in the wrong direction.
21 00:57:00 tommost But hey, at least you get to live on a floor where four people have the same first name. That's my experience. ;)
21 01:00:00 rr72 who was your ra?
21 01:00:00 tommost Kyle Overmeyer.
21 01:00:00 tommost One of the four Kyles.
21 01:02:00 tommost He's finishing up his last quarter(s) this year, so he won't be an RA again.
21 01:14:00 Morasique :D i just saw "w00t w00t in speed", i actually laughed out loud
21 01:15:00 tommost Wow, and I thought I was brutal.
21 01:15:00 Morasique saying speed is right next to bsb is like saying purdue is right next to rose
21 01:15:00 Morasique although as hayes put it my freshman year, speed has "male unity"
21 01:16:00 tommost Indeed. We are united in wishing we were in BSB.
21 01:17:00 Morasique rr72: what major are you?
21 01:18:00 rr72 EE
21 01:19:00 rr72 how do they pick rooms? first come first serve?
21 01:19:00 Morasique i think so for freshman
21 01:20:00 tommost I've heard that Hayes hand-picks a lot of Speed.
21 01:20:00 tommost That's why you end up with such funny combinations of names.
21 01:20:00 Morasique well now i feel chosen
21 01:21:00 Morasique although admittedly, there's no way he could've passed up "zahreddine/mrozek"
21 01:21:00 Morasique he probably laughed for hours over that one
21 01:21:00 tommost Heh.
21 01:21:00 tommost I was specially picked halfway through the year go go live with Jerry. :)
21 01:23:00 Morasique nice
21 01:23:00 Morasique tommost: did everyone get into percopo?
21 01:24:00 tommost Nope.
21 01:24:00 tommost I did, but another group on Speed 2 didn't.
21 01:24:00 tommost It was sad.
21 01:25:00 Morasique your year is entirely too large
21 01:25:00 tommost How big is the incoming class?
21 01:25:00 rr72 400 iirc
21 01:26:00 rr72 and hayes is the one i emailed asking for my information
21 01:26:00 tommost Oh, wow, apparently there were 477 in my year.
21 01:26:00 Morasique tommost: i think yours is the biggest ever
21 01:27:00 Morasique have fun with the apartments, btw
21 01:27:00 tommost Oh, damn.
21 01:27:00 tommost I'm tempted to just go straight for Skinner, in that case.
21 01:27:00 tommost Since practically everyone there will be moving out.
21 01:27:00 Morasique i imagine you won't get in next year, i don't think any juniors did this year
21 01:28:00 andy753421 last year there were a bunch of sophomores and juniors in skinner
21 01:28:00 tommost That's because pretty much everyone in Skinner is staying there.
21 01:28:00 Morasique sorry, i was talking about the apartments
21 01:28:00 Morasique is it hard to get into skinner?
21 01:29:00 rr72 open the door?
21 01:29:00 Morasique intriguing idea
21 01:30:00 rr72 what do the bsb basement numbers start with? 0?
21 01:32:00 Morasique yeah
21 01:33:00 rr72 compsci caves? lol
21 01:34:00 Morasique i wish, it was quiet when freshman weren't running around drunk breaking shit
21 01:34:00 Morasique so, ~15% of the time it was nice
21 01:35:00 rr72 ehy does everyone hate on speed?
21 01:35:00 Morasique the rooms are smaller than bsb, it's further away from everything, and there's no air conditioning
21 01:36:00 rr72 not that much further away
21 01:36:00 Morasique well no, but it's basically the one hall with no benefits
21 01:36:00 rr72 kinda figured rooms were smaller from the pictures and no A/C?
21 01:37:00 Morasique no, the building's too old, it can't support it
21 01:37:00 rr72 rooms or halls?
21 01:37:00 Morasique it's pretty amusing walking past it, there's fans in every window
21 01:37:00 Morasique er. what?
21 01:37:00 rr72 no a/c in the halls or rooms?
21 01:37:00 Morasique none in the whole building
21 01:38:00 rr72 god fucking shit
21 01:38:00 rr72 0 sleep for me then
21 01:38:00 rr72 befriend someone somewhere else then lol
21 01:38:00 Morasique it doesn't matter for very long
21 01:39:00 rr72 true
21 01:39:00 rr72 it has to have heat though right?
21 01:39:00 Morasique yeah
21 01:40:00 rr72 i read the email and when he said speed i said SHIT! lol
21 01:40:00 Morasique ...
21 01:40:00 Morasique 00:39 < rr72> w00t w00t in speed
21 01:41:00 rr72 as in i finally found out my room
21 01:41:00 rr72 now to wait and see who my roomate it
21 01:41:00 rr72 *is
21 01:50:00 tommost rr72: May you have better luck than me.
21 01:51:00 tommost 'night all.
21 01:51:00 tommost (Mountain time here.)
21 10:51:00 Morasique I'm not sure how QA peoples' minds work. I had in my design document that you couldn't call any of a set of functions before you call one specific function that initializes stuff. One of their tests was to try calling those functions without calling my initializing function. It didn't work; they apparently feel this is a failed test
21 11:14:00 tommost andy753421: The point of the <pre>s was that it makes copy and paste work properly.
21 11:15:00 tommost Thank you for removing all of the hard work I did to fix copy and paste.
21 12:05:00 Morasique "Microsoft's international pricing of Vista has been criticized by many as too expensive.[citation needed]"
21 12:05:00 Morasique seriously wikipedia?
21 12:05:00 Morasique citation needed?
21 12:05:00 Morasique "Some people feel Hitler was bad. [citation needed]"
21 12:06:00 tommost thinks of Godwin
21 12:07:00 Morasique we were dangerously low on our Hitler references, i felt it was necessary
21 12:08:00 Morasique "Sometimes we get all-campus e-mails. [citation needed]"
21 12:08:00 tommost What of Stalin? Can't we give him some credit too?
21 12:08:00 Morasique there, Hitler free
21 12:08:00 Morasique i'll work on it
21 12:51:00 andy753421 tommost_aorist: how exactly did I remove all your hard work?
21 12:53:00 andy753421 I just made it so that text inside {{guide:file||}}'s is monspace and doesn't get wiki formatted by default
21 12:54:00 andy753421 then I changed like 2 pages to not use <pre> and realized it didn't work quite perfectly, so I stopped
21 13:05:00 andy753421 in other news, it looks like we'll be able to use lug.rose-hulman.edu
21 13:06:00 andy753421 IAIT seems fine with it but Dr. Mellor has to email them first. I don't see that being a problem though
21 13:09:00 Morasique score. can we add our own subdomains on top of that? i'm not really sure how that works
21 13:09:00 andy753421 yes, if the delegate the domain to us (and based on the wording, i think they will be) then we can do whatever we like with *.lug.rose-hulman.edu
21 13:10:00 andy753421 *if they
21 13:10:00 Morasique ok
21 13:13:00 andy753421 when someone requests foo.lug.rose-hulman.edu, it would theoretically query the root nameserver which would reply `ask the edu. nameserver', which would reply `ask dc-1.rose-hulman.edu' which would reply `ask the lug.rose-hulman.edu nameserver'
21 13:13:00 andy753421 and since we'll be running lug.rose-hulman.edu we can tell it do do whatever we like
21 14:03:00 Morasique somebody used basic to solve the google codejam problems. i'm impressed
21 14:03:00 Morasique somebody else used brainfuck, but they didn't get very far
21 15:37:00 Morasique i heard lightsaber sounds and thought one of the other interns was playing a star wars game. turns out it was one of the engineers
21 15:50:00 andy753421 apparently the interns still haven't figured out that what their jobs are completely meaningless :P
21 16:16:00 auchter ok, i retract my statement about liking libgc.
21 16:18:00 andy753421 why's that?
21 16:20:00 auchter it's likely my fault, but it's segfauling whenever it tries to allocate a moderately large chunk
21 16:20:00 auchter actually, not even moderately large, 916588 bytes.
21 16:21:00 andy753421 what's the errno?
21 16:23:00 auchter it segfaults withink GC_MALLOC, so i can't really tell (not sure if GC_MALLOC would even set it)
21 16:24:00 auchter anyway, i just went back to mallocing and freeing by hand, it's working fine
21 16:24:00 andy753421 alright
21 16:48:00 andy753421 eek, i just got attacked by zombies :'(
21 21:36:00 auchter tommost_aorist: is there any reason why bela's still down?
21 22:03:00 Morasique xmodmap is very cool. i have caps lock set up as a separate modifier key, and scroll lock triggers caps lock functionality now for the rare occasion where i might want it
21 22:06:00 andy753421 i'd suggest setting caps lock to control
21 22:06:00 andy753421 since you use emacs, it might help delay the arthritis :P
21 22:08:00 Morasique that's how i had it on ubuntu, but i couldn't get in the habit of using it, i always hit control anyway
21 22:13:00 Morasique i don't know if people have been following it, but apparently the dns vulnerability they've been trying to keep quiet leaked today
21 22:13:00 Morasique and apparently my isp is slow at patching
21 22:14:00 andy753421 link?
21 22:14:00 andy753421 i.e. how does it work?
21 22:15:00 Morasique i don't know, i can't find a page that actually explains it, apparently it was on a security researchers blog for a little while by mistake before they took it down
21 22:15:00 Morasique here's a link about it, but they don't explain the problem: http://security4all.blogspot.com/2008/07/now-is-time-to-patch-those-unpatched.html
21 22:17:00 Morasique http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=621263&cid=24281965
21 22:29:00 Mishtal weirdest pidgin pop up message ever.......
21 22:29:00 Mishtal http://24.160.201.84/Screenshot-1.png
21 22:30:00 Morasique evil is the technical term for warnings on AIM
21 22:30:00 andy753421 http://blogs.buanzo.com.ar/2008/07/matasano-kaminsky-dns-forgery.html
21 22:30:00 andy753421 that seems to explain it
21 22:30:00 Morasique yeah, it's the same text as in the slashdot link i posted
21 22:31:00 Mishtal i asked about it in #pidgin, they explained it for me
21 22:32:00 Morasique it's depressing that the only thing authenticating dns requests is a random 16-bit number
21 22:34:00 Morasique the ending seems wrong, if you're requesting cxopq.victim.com then www.victim.com shouldn't be in-scope
21 22:34:00 Morasique this is reminding me sadly of XSS
21 22:34:00 andy753421 i think that's the bug?
21 22:35:00 Morasique maybe. it's not really a bug, just a bad design decision, but they must've done it for a reason, it couldn't have happened by mistake
21 22:38:00 andy753421 I think it's because when bob looks up aaaa.victim.com he's really looking up victim.com first
21 22:42:00 Morasique no, victim.com is cached to be the right address, but aaaa.victim.com needs a new A record request, and when they manage to finally poison one of those subdomain requests for some reason clients allow the additional RRs to include a change of victim.com even though they shouldn't
21 22:43:00 andy753421 yea, but when they request aaa.victim.com which isn't cached it asks ns1.victim.com which is authoritative for *.victim.com
21 22:43:00 Morasique it only asks for ns1.victim.com once though, after that it knows it
21 22:46:00 andy753421 it depends on how the checking works
21 22:47:00 andy753421 it might just honor any responses from ns1.victim.com for anything in it's zone
21 22:47:00 Morasique yeah, i think that's it. it's letting ns1.victim.com change the address of victim.com even though it's responding to a request for aaaa.victim.com
21 22:48:00 andy753421 you'd have to look though the bind source code or something to see if that's now it's done
21 22:48:00 Morasique it makes sense when i look at it like that, that shouldn't be a bad thing until this came along
21 22:54:00 Morasique does anybody use opendns out of curiosity? i was thinking about looking at it, i don't really know the pros and cons though
21 22:58:00 auchter Morasique: i seem to recall povilusr or baty mentioning they they use it, but i might be wrong
21 23:08:00 andy753421 it looks like the diff on bind between 9.5.0 and 9.5.0-p1 just includes a lot of code to randomize port numbers
21 23:09:00 Morasique andy753421: that was the fix for this, now instead of just checking the QID it checks the port too, so it's more like a 32-bit random number instead of 16
21 23:26:00 andy753421 I guess you could say aaa.victim.com is an alias to victim.com which as address 6.6.6.0
21 23:26:00 andy753421 but it seems like if victim.com is cached it should still ignore it
21 23:38:00 rr73 so i can request foo.lug.rose-hulman.edu or no? lol
21 23:38:00 rr73 h.o. i need to get my laptop
21 23:39:00 rr73 redoing a whole system(merging parts) and need config files and codes and such
21 23:39:00 Mishtal dude, what possible reason would you have to want that domain?
21 23:40:00 Morasique i don't even think we have a nameserver up, do we?
21 23:41:00 Mishtal Morasique: i dont think that we do. ive never heard anyone talk about one
21 23:41:00 rr73 Mishtal~ just principles, hypotheticly
21 23:41:00 rr73 <andy753421> in other news, it looks like we'll be able to use lug.rose-hulman.edu
21 23:41:00 Morasique i imagine andy753421 will get one running once iait gives us the domain
21 23:42:00 Mishtal rr73: what principles? what possible reason would make foo.lug.rose-hulman.edu useful to you?
21 23:42:00 rr73 domains and subdomains and dhcp and dns
21 23:43:00 Mishtal rr73: http://www.rr72.org/
21 23:43:00 Mishtal there
21 23:43:00 Mishtal go and register it
21 23:43:00 Mishtal hurry up too, .com is already taken
21 23:43:00 rr73 not going to pay for a name
21 23:43:00 auchter all.you.windows.using.heathens.bow.before.the.lug.rose-hulman.edu
21 23:44:00 rr73 there are plenty of free ones
21 23:44:00 Morasique auchter: good choice
21 23:44:00 Mishtal auchter: amazing
21 23:44:00 rr73 ones as in ways
21 23:44:00 Morasique bow.before.the.lug.rose-hulman.edu should go somewhere :)
21 23:44:00 rr73 Morasique~ remind me to push Mishtal in Speed Lake when I see him
21 23:45:00 Morasique i'm confident you'll remember
21 23:45:00 Mishtal rr73: good luck with that
21 23:45:00 Morasique uh oh, zz is back
21 23:45:00 zz Morasique~ I never left
21 23:46:00 Morasique very existential of you
21 23:46:00 auchter so, as a side note, anyone know exactly how reverse dns lookups work?
21 23:46:00 Mishtal zz: do you know some guy named rr73? apparently he wants to lake me
21 23:46:00 Mishtal auchter: a in, give it an ip and ask for a domain?
21 23:46:00 zz auchter~ enlighten us
21 23:46:00 auchter particularly in the context of rose (e.g. my ip resolves to freya.dhcp.rose-hulman.edu, i'd like it to resolve to freya.phire.org)
21 23:47:00 zz I think rose would have to point it back to you
21 23:47:00 Mishtal isnt that something that needs to be dealt with with the dns folks? if they exist and arnt actually faries that have pixie flavored server trees.
21 23:47:00 andy753421 when you do a reverse dns lookup on 1.2.3.4 you're actually doing a normal lookup on `4.3.2.1.in-addr.arpa'
21 23:48:00 andy753421 it just returns a cname to the real domain name
21 23:48:00 zz because if you have bubble.com but if your ISP isnt set up the right way then it goes back to the isp
21 23:48:00 Mishtal zz: ... what?
21 23:48:00 zz so it shows 3.4.2.5-comcast
21 23:49:00 zz .hsd1.wi.comcast.net
21 23:49:00 zz idk i am rambling on
21 23:49:00 auchter andy753421: ah, alright. that explains the output of host...
21 23:49:00 andy753421 anyway, mellor e-mailed IAIT so now it's just waiting until they assign a NS record for lug.rose-hulman.edu
21 23:49:00 zz someone pull the plug lol
21 23:49:00 andy753421 we'll probably also get a static ip for the nameserver
21 23:50:00 andy753421 at least I would assume that we do
21 23:50:00 auchter they gave us two for robotics, so i'd assume so too
21 23:50:00 zz anyone have any suggestions on readings on nameservers and dns before I start looking?
21 23:51:00 Mishtal no
21 23:51:00 andy753421 zz: rfc1034 and rfc1035
21 23:51:00 andy753421 http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/dns-rfcs.html
21 23:51:00 zz cool ty
21 23:51:00 auchter yay plumbing
21 23:51:00 zz a little bedtime reading
21 23:52:00 Morasique andy753421: tell me you didn't have those RFC numbers memorized
21 23:52:00 Mishtal Morasique: i had the RFC numbers for FTP/SSL memorized for the past two months.. i only forgot them recently from my project drawing to a close. It was frightening
21 23:53:00 andy753421 no, i was reading those a few minutes ago when we were talking about the DNS vulnerabilities
21 23:53:00 auchter i've got several memorized, RFC 822, RFC 2822, RFC 2311-2315
21 23:53:00 zz Morasique~ so? i know someone who has the timing of a 350 memorized
21 23:53:00 Mishtal zz: what is a 350?
21 23:54:00 zz bigblock
21 23:54:00 Mishtal which is
21 23:54:00 zz bigblock .... timing ... 350
21 23:54:00 Morasique ooooooooh! it's so clear now
21 23:54:00 Mishtal still at a los
21 23:54:00 Mishtal loss*
21 23:55:00 auchter ah, the wiki page on DNS record types is very helpful... i was only familiar with A, AAAA, CNAME, and MX. there are significantly more than that.
21 23:55:00 Morasique Mishtal: so is google
21 23:55:00 auchter it's a bloody engine
21 23:55:00 auchter RFC 4255 is very cool
21 23:56:00 Mishtal zz: please improve the throughput of your babble generator and increase the strength of your coherence signal
21 23:56:00 Morasique oh, seriously? i skipped over all those google results assuming they were irrelevant
21 23:56:00 zz squelch is to low what?
21 23:56:00 andy753421 *obligatory reference to rfc11498
21 23:56:00 Morasique this is worse than talking to povilusr
21 23:57:00 Mishtal Morasique: for most purposes, combustion engines are not, or at least soon will be irrelevant to electric motors. so your assumptions were valid
21 23:57:00 auchter did you dup that 1?
21 23:58:00 andy753421 er, my trailing star on that last message was a failure
21 23:59:00 Morasique ah. that makes more sense
21 23:59:00 Morasique i was wondering how 1498 was interesting
22 00:00:00 auchter they're still using rfc 1149 out in austin judging by octavious's inability to stay connected yesterday
22 00:08:00 Morasique i just switched to opendns, bullet #2 on their site is "We're confident that you'll notice sites like MySpace load faster."
22 00:08:00 Morasique well i'm sold
22 00:10:00 Mishtal the faster a product lets me access myspace, the faster im going to move away from anything that appears to be that product or related to it in any way for a very long time
22 00:11:00 Morasique well, you could also use opendns to block myspace, so it's a win either way
22 00:47:00 andy753421 auchter: apparently TERM=xterm-256color works well in place of TERM=rxvt-256color and doesn't give errors whenever you ssh somewhere
22 00:49:00 auchter andy753421: excellent, thanks for the tip
22 00:50:00 auchter in other news, gcc 4.3 supports numbers of the form 0b[01]+
22 00:51:00 andy753421 is that new in 4.3? I thought I had used that before..
22 00:51:00 auchter http://gcc.gnu.org/gcc-4.3/changes.html looks like it
22 00:52:00 auchter converting numbers into hex all the time was getting a bit old
26 21:47:00 tommost Am I the only one who hates SWiK?
26 21:55:00 auchter tommost: no, you're definitely not alone
26 21:55:00 tommost I need to write a Greasemonkey script that removes it from search results. Its only reason to exist seems to be to make Google less useful.
26 21:56:00 auchter yeah, no swik page has ever been useful to me
26 22:27:00 Morasique i'm pretty sure i've never heard of it before somehow
26 22:28:00 tommost Morasique: Hmm?
26 22:40:00 Morasique tommost: swik, you and auchter were talking about it
26 22:40:00 tommost No, I mean that your sentence didn't make sense.
26 22:41:00 Morasique it does, it's just not worded well. drop the somehow if that clarifies it, and pretend i'm saying it in a confused tone
26 22:42:00 tommost Oh, okay.
26 22:42:00 Morasique andy753421: did you write the mutt wiki article?
26 22:42:00 tommost I'm surprised that you haven't; it seems to pollute just about any query involving "Ubuntu".
26 22:42:00 Morasique maybe i have and just never noticed
26 22:43:00 tommost Quite possible if you ignore useless results.
27 01:36:00 andy753421 Morasique: if you're refereeing to the local mail article, then yes I did
27 12:30:00 Morasique i still don't understand why firefox hotkeys don't work when you're inside a plugin, like flash or a pdf
27 12:45:00 crr I've always assumed that firefox sends all the input to the plugin, and the plugin processes all of it regardless of whether it actually does anything with it
27 12:49:00 auchter it seems like there should be a way for the plugin to pass it through to firefox though
27 13:03:00 Morasique i saw a bug report about it once where mozilla people explained it, apparently for some reason they can't do it, but i don't know why
27 13:03:00 Morasique the suggestion was to have a master hotkey that breaks you out of the plugin, which sounded good to me, but they couldn't for some reason
27 13:23:00 crr if I were implementing something like this, I'd have FF pass an event to the plugin function that handles the event, and the function's return value would indicate whether the plugin processed the event or not
27 13:24:00 crr I'm guessing that's how FF does it (it would be consistent with how other events in the browser work)
27 13:24:00 crr however, I wouldn't put it past Adobe to say "we handled that event" for all of them, regardless of whether any processing actually occurred
27 13:25:00 crr and there's not anything FF can do about that (other than to assume the plugin is wrong and process the event anyways, which would be worse)
27 13:32:00 Morasique it happens in flash windows too, and probably in every other plugin, those are just the only two i can think of. if you open a random youtube video and click on the player so it's focused, hotkeys don't work anymore, and youtube videos don't support any hotkeys afaik
27 13:41:00 crr it could be that FF fires input off to the plugin and then forgets about it, but there's not much reason to do that
27 13:41:00 crr also, both Flash and the pdf viewer are Adobe plugins (although flash didn't used to be)
27 13:49:00 Morasique oh. good, i can blame adobe for now then
27 14:07:00 andy753421 I would guess that firefox doesn't actually receive the events in the first place
27 14:08:00 andy753421 my guess would be that the flash plugin connects directly with X and takes all the input
27 14:08:00 andy753421 which would also explain help to why flash plugins get displayed on top of other HTML elements regardless of the z-order
27 14:25:00 andy753421 wow, that `explain' seems to have jumped to words
27 14:27:00 auchter i didn't even notice that until you said something.
27 14:27:00 octaviou1 actually, the fact that you mispelled two bothered me more, heh
27 14:30:00 Morasique http://bash.org/?35955
27 14:33:00 Morasique octaviou1: misspelled :)
27 15:01:00 tommost Under Linux plugins are currently "windowed". There's a Firefox bug that has been/will soon be fixed to enable proper alpha compositing of plugins into the page, but this has been done under Windows and OSX for a long time and it doesn't seem to affect the event problem.
27 15:03:00 tommost Ah, here it is: http://blogs.adobe.com/penguin.swf/2008/07/addessing_wmode_crashes.html
27 15:23:00 Morasique anybody know if there's a way to customize where libnotify alerts show up?
27 15:30:00 andy753421 Morasique: it's in gconf, /apps/notification/daemon/popup_location
27 15:31:00 Morasique score. thanks
27 15:32:00 Morasique for some reason when i have my second monitor on (to the right) it pops up the notifications below the bottom of the screen
27 15:56:00 andy753421 Justin Fuller? Where did you come from :)
27 15:58:00 Morasique i'm pretty sure i never knew his name until now
27 15:58:00 tommost I've been wondering whether it was Justin or Justina :D.
27 15:59:00 Morasique i assumed it's a middle initial, but it is rather ambiguous
27 15:59:00 Morasique although this is #rhlug, so that makes a justina somewhat unlikely
27 15:59:00 tommost Indeed.
27 16:00:00 tommost justinafuller: Do we know you? Or are you an incoming freshman?
27 16:00:00 Morasique he's a senior
27 16:00:00 tommost Oh.
27 16:00:00 Morasique who apparently hates us :)
27 16:00:00 tommost justinafuller: Why do you hate us?
27 16:00:00 andy753421 tommost: he was on my floor freshman year and is going to be the RA in skinner next year
27 16:00:00 auchter yeah, i think we already had this discussion
27 16:01:00 tommost justinafuller: Congrats. You get my current room.
27 16:01:00 auchter with tom acting just as confused then as now
27 16:01:00 andy753421 haha, was that when the log was down?
27 16:01:00 tommost justinafuller: Our stove fan doesn't work :(
27 16:02:00 auchter tommost: you should cook indian food nonstop, the place will never smell the same again
27 16:03:00 tommost Yeah, I need to get to Baesler's for some lamb.
27 16:04:00 tommost I do have everything I need for Andy's pizza, though.
27 16:04:00 tommost Except the lard stuff. Would butter work?
27 16:04:00 andy753421 tommost: yes
27 16:04:00 tommost Mmmm...
27 16:04:00 auchter actually that recipe i posted won't really make stuff smell that bad
27 16:04:00 auchter a real indian curry that takes 3 hours to cook should do the trick ;)
27 16:04:00 tommost :D
27 16:05:00 auchter especially dry-frying the spices... man, there were times last year that i couldn't breathe in my apartment for hours
27 18:39:00 andy753421 ok, luglog starts up at boot now
27 18:40:00 auchter woo
27 18:43:00 andy753421 it's being run by cron instead of init though
27 18:44:00 andy753421 because it takes 1 line of code, and doesn't require root access
27 18:46:00 auchter the method is secondary to the result
27 19:30:00 tommost Okay, auchter, I now have kimchi, oyster sauce, and wood ear. What do I do with them?
27 19:31:00 Morasique ...this has to be some sort of black magic spell, wtf is wood ear?
27 19:31:00 tommost A mushroom.
27 19:31:00 Mishtal they are cooking satan foods
27 19:31:00 tommost At the Asian Market it was actually sold as black fungus.
27 19:32:00 Mishtal delicious... nothing quite like a man eating lifeform that is neither animal mineral or vegetable
27 20:25:00 octavious learned a valuable lesson today. dont try to cook a grilled cheese on a george foreman grill
27 20:26:00 octavious turns out the weight of the two grill plates just squeeze out the melted cheese
27 20:27:00 octavious until all that is left is two peices of toast and a pool of cheese
27 20:27:00 andy753421 isn't that basically how they make grilled sandwiches at the ARA?
27 20:27:00 andy753421 I imagine if you get the grills nice and hot first it might work better
27 20:28:00 octavious yeah, i did that. didnt help
27 20:32:00 Blazeix I've had luck making grilled cheese on george foreman grills, but I once, out of desperation, tried to make grilled cheese with velveeta.
27 20:32:00 Blazeix That didn't work too well.
27 20:40:00 auchter tommost: the kimchi you eat plain (unless your kimchi is old and strong, then a soup is a good idea) with rice
27 20:41:00 auchter tommost: i like oyster sauce, woodear, green onion, and tofu stir fried together
27 20:41:00 auchter and i most definitely have an addiction to kimchi... it is delicious at all times of the day, and i often cannot stop eating it
27 20:42:00 auchter i think amoung the copious amounts of bacteria present in kimchi is some sort of brain parasite that makes me crave it
27 20:54:00 octavious einit is crazy about this whole 9p business...
27 20:55:00 tommost Hm?
27 20:55:00 auchter how so?
27 20:56:00 octavious i believe its all controlled internally using 9p fs
27 20:56:00 auchter really... this interests me
27 20:56:00 octavious even the control program - einit - dumps the status and all sorts of shit using 9p
27 20:56:00 andy753421 wow, i looked into einit once but didn't realize that
27 20:57:00 octavious and it is damn fast
27 20:57:00 auchter yeah, i looked at it too and didn't realize that either
27 20:58:00 auchter i'm interested in what it uses it for
27 20:59:00 octavious heh, mention 9p and everyone gets excited..
27 20:59:00 auchter well, i'm just skeptical of its place in an init system
27 21:00:00 andy753421 I can see it being useful. 'echo stop > /init/cron' for example
27 21:01:00 auchter that's not a bad point. or better, cat /init/cron/runlevels
27 21:03:00 andy753421 does einit even have runlevels? I would guess not
27 21:04:00 auchter ok, maybe bad example then
27 21:05:00 auchter looking at their website, they seem to use xml pretty heavily...
27 21:05:00 tommost :(
27 21:06:00 auchter and not any mentions of 9p as far as i can see, though i'm probably not looking hard enough
27 21:06:00 octavious yeah, the XML config kind of sucks, but it worked mostly out of the box for me
27 21:07:00 octavious http://pastebin.com/m76b7d6c1
27 21:07:00 octavious from the einit man page
27 21:09:00 auchter ah, cool
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 21:06:00 octavious yeah, the XML config kind of sucks, but it worked mostly out of the box for me
27 21:07:00 octavious http://pastebin.com/m76b7d6c1
27 21:07:00 octavious from the einit man page
27 21:09:00 auchter ah, cool
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 21:05:00 auchter looking at their website, they seem to use xml pretty heavily...
27 21:05:00 tommost :(
27 21:06:00 auchter and not any mentions of 9p as far as i can see, though i'm probably not looking hard enough
27 21:06:00 octavious yeah, the XML config kind of sucks, but it worked mostly out of the box for me
27 21:07:00 octavious http://pastebin.com/m76b7d6c1
27 21:07:00 octavious from the einit man page
27 21:09:00 auchter ah, cool
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 21:05:00 auchter looking at their website, they seem to use xml pretty heavily...
27 21:05:00 tommost :(
27 21:06:00 auchter and not any mentions of 9p as far as i can see, though i'm probably not looking hard enough
27 21:06:00 octavious yeah, the XML config kind of sucks, but it worked mostly out of the box for me
27 21:07:00 octavious http://pastebin.com/m76b7d6c1
27 21:07:00 octavious from the einit man page
27 21:09:00 auchter ah, cool
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 20:59:00 octavious heh, mention 9p and everyone gets excited..
27 20:59:00 auchter well, i'm just skeptical of its place in an init system
27 21:00:00 andy753421 I can see it being useful. 'echo stop > /init/cron' for example
27 21:01:00 auchter that's not a bad point. or better, cat /init/cron/runlevels
27 21:03:00 andy753421 does einit even have runlevels? I would guess not
27 21:04:00 auchter ok, maybe bad example then
27 21:05:00 auchter looking at their website, they seem to use xml pretty heavily...
27 21:05:00 tommost :(
27 21:06:00 auchter and not any mentions of 9p as far as i can see, though i'm probably not looking hard enough
27 21:06:00 octavious yeah, the XML config kind of sucks, but it worked mostly out of the box for me
27 21:07:00 octavious http://pastebin.com/m76b7d6c1
27 21:07:00 octavious from the einit man page
27 21:09:00 auchter ah, cool
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 20:59:00 octavious heh, mention 9p and everyone gets excited..
27 20:59:00 auchter well, i'm just skeptical of its place in an init system
27 21:00:00 andy753421 I can see it being useful. 'echo stop > /init/cron' for example
27 21:01:00 auchter that's not a bad point. or better, cat /init/cron/runlevels
27 21:03:00 andy753421 does einit even have runlevels? I would guess not
27 21:04:00 auchter ok, maybe bad example then
27 21:05:00 auchter looking at their website, they seem to use xml pretty heavily...
27 21:05:00 tommost :(
27 21:06:00 auchter and not any mentions of 9p as far as i can see, though i'm probably not looking hard enough
27 21:06:00 octavious yeah, the XML config kind of sucks, but it worked mostly out of the box for me
27 21:07:00 octavious http://pastebin.com/m76b7d6c1
27 21:07:00 octavious from the einit man page
27 21:09:00 auchter ah, cool
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 20:59:00 auchter well, i'm just skeptical of its place in an init system
27 21:00:00 andy753421 I can see it being useful. 'echo stop > /init/cron' for example
27 21:01:00 auchter that's not a bad point. or better, cat /init/cron/runlevels
27 21:03:00 andy753421 does einit even have runlevels? I would guess not
27 21:04:00 auchter ok, maybe bad example then
27 21:05:00 auchter looking at their website, they seem to use xml pretty heavily...
27 21:05:00 tommost :(
27 21:06:00 auchter and not any mentions of 9p as far as i can see, though i'm probably not looking hard enough
27 21:06:00 octavious yeah, the XML config kind of sucks, but it worked mostly out of the box for me
27 21:07:00 octavious http://pastebin.com/m76b7d6c1
27 21:07:00 octavious from the einit man page
27 21:09:00 auchter ah, cool
27 21:10:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of 9p, how about serving the irc logs over 9p/some other network filesystem
27 21:12:00 andy753421 auchter: fuse/httpfs
27 21:12:00 auchter oh, i've got to see the traces of this with tail -f...
27 21:13:00 andy753421 i looked into using u9fs but that seem to server the entire filesystem not just a directory and it's children which is what made me not want to use it
27 21:13:00 auchter i use inferno, which works pretty well (and lets you only export a specific directory)
27 21:15:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/67794/
27 21:16:00 auchter yay stuff that doesn't work
27 22:09:00 Morasique tommost: you scared justina away
27 22:10:00 tommost :')
27 22:10:00 Blazeix tears of joy?
27 22:11:00 tommost Typo.
27 22:28:00 Morasique luglog is having fun
27 22:29:00 tommost Indeed.
27 22:29:00 andy753421 luglog broke itself, but is better now
27 22:29:00 andy753421 well, that or I broke it, one or the other..
27 22:30:00 andy753421 it was trying to append logs to files in directories that didn't exist
27 22:33:00 tommost Trac templates make me sad. :(
27 22:33:00 tommost They're XML.
27 22:34:00 andy753421 what did you expect?
27 22:34:00 tommost Something sane.
27 22:34:00 andy753421 like HTML or SMGL?
27 22:35:00 tommost Really, what I was expecting was that they would be easier to customize. The pain of XML is just icing.
27 22:35:00 auchter well, at least XML is sorta alright for document layout
27 22:35:00 tommost "Trac is using Genshi as the templating engine. Documentation is yet to be written"
27 22:36:00 tommost auchter: Yeah, but text (see Django's template system) is much easier to deal with.
27 22:36:00 Morasique i'm not sure what xml did that made it "uncool", it seems to be very recent
27 22:36:00 andy753421 `USE="doc" emerge genshi', that should fix it
27 22:36:00 auchter Morasique: it's being used for things it really should be used for
27 22:37:00 auchter this is a relatively recent phenomenon for me
27 22:37:00 tommost Genshi is XML to make it impossible to generate invalid XHTML.
27 22:37:00 tommost XHTML is stupid.
27 22:37:00 tommost I'd prefer HTML (not that I care enough to change it).
27 22:37:00 andy753421 tommost: why html over xhtml?
27 22:37:00 tommost XHTML does nothing better, and in fact introduces a bunch of problems.
27 22:37:00 auchter i don't even know the difference.
27 22:38:00 andy753421 theoretically, it's faster to parse, which seems to make it worthwhile
27 22:38:00 tommost For starters, it's simply interpreted as HTML in the real world—you can send it as XML, but XML's draconian error handling makes that a horrible idea.
27 22:39:00 tommost andy753421: No real-world browser can ever actually take advantage of that, so no win.
27 22:39:00 andy753421 that's a problem with browsers not xhtml
27 22:39:00 tommost No, that's reality. A browser that dies on the first unescaped ampersand is not going to have any users.
27 22:39:00 tommost Thinking otherwise is fantasy.
27 22:40:00 andy753421 that's still not a problem with xhtml..
27 22:40:00 tommost Oh, I suppose.
27 22:40:00 tommost There *are* problems with it, though.
27 22:40:00 andy753421 such as?
27 22:40:00 tommost For starters, encodings.
27 22:40:00 andy753421 i guess I should say, what are the problems with xhtml that html doesn't have
27 22:42:00 tommost Mainly the issue is draconian error handling (part of XML)—it means that XHTML is harder to author because the slightest flaw will make the whole document fail.
27 22:42:00 andy753421 as far as I can tell, most things fail on the slightest flaw
27 22:42:00 tommost Not HTML.
27 22:43:00 tommost XHTML actually makes the situation *worse*, which is why there's no reason to use it.
27 22:43:00 andy753421 let's see, C, python, ruby, assembly, what else?
27 22:43:00 andy753421 machine code, there's a good one
27 22:43:00 tommost What do programming languages have to do with markup languages?
27 22:43:00 andy753421 what do markup languages have to do with 'most things'
27 22:43:00 tommost Er, the entire web?
27 22:44:00 andy753421 `the web' != `most things'
27 22:44:00 auchter a slight error in tex will likely mean your document looks completely wrong/won't compile
27 22:44:00 tommost I don't see what "most things" have to do with our discussion. You brought in "most things".
27 22:44:00 andy753421 i know I did
27 22:45:00 andy753421 I'm saying that the web doesn't need to handle errors any differently than everything else
27 22:45:00 tommost I mentioned before that XHTML is generally parsed as HTML (it's sent with the text/html mime-type).
27 22:46:00 tommost The reason this works is that HTML has sane error handling.
27 22:46:00 tommost It doesn't care about <br> vs. XHTML's <br />.
27 22:46:00 andy753421 you're saying that XML is flawed because it doesn't handle errors and errors need to be handled because HTML does
27 22:46:00 tommost I'm talking about XHTML.
27 22:46:00 andy753421 ok, s/XML/XHTML for my last comment
27 22:47:00 tommost Draconian error handling in XML is stupid, but it's not what I'm talking about.\
27 22:47:00 andy753421 why is it stupid?
27 22:47:00 tommost Because it means that document corruption is fatal.
27 22:47:00 andy753421 why is that bad?
27 22:48:00 tommost What's the point of having verbose end tags (</tag> vs. </> or something) if you don't gain something from them?
27 22:48:00 tommost How can it not be bad?
27 22:48:00 tommost "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send."
27 22:48:00 andy753421 I never said I liked <longtagname>..</longtagname>, but what does that have to do with error handling?
27 22:49:00 andy753421 "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you send.": that's a recipe for bad code
27 22:49:00 tommost HTML != code
27 22:50:00 tommost Programming languages need to be extremely strict because errors are ambiguous.
27 22:50:00 andy753421 code != programming language
27 22:50:00 tommost HTML doesn't because well-defined error handling means that errors *aren't* ambiguous.
27 22:50:00 tommost Look at CSS.
27 22:51:00 andy753421 what about CSS?
27 22:51:00 tommost Well-defined error handling means that new syntax can be placed in stylesheets without breaking everything.
27 22:51:00 tommost Media queries, for example.
27 22:52:00 tommost @media all and (max-width: 300px) { ... } will be ignored by a non-supporting browser.
27 22:52:00 andy753421 yea, i have no desire to learn CSS3, so i'm going to ignore that last comment
27 22:52:00 tommost If it were XML the entire document would be thrown out.
27 22:52:00 tommost This makes for a bad consumer experience.
27 22:53:00 tommost Basically, things shouldn't break if they don't have to.
27 22:53:00 andy753421 not true
27 22:53:00 andy753421 there's other factors to consider as well
27 22:54:00 andy753421 i.e. speed, memory consumption, simplicity of parsers, etc
27 22:54:00 tommost s/^Basically, /Consumer-facing things /
27 22:54:00 andy753421 still not true
27 22:54:00 tommost All of which don't really matter in this case.
27 22:54:00 andy753421 last time I started a web browsers, i disagreed with you
27 22:55:00 tommost Network communication and rendering dwarf parsing in web browsers.
27 22:55:00 andy753421 agreed, the rendering is probably the big user
27 22:55:00 andy753421 however, simplicity of the parser does matter
27 22:55:00 tommost Well, of course.
27 22:56:00 tommost But when simplicity results in a poor user experience it doesn't help.
27 22:56:00 andy753421 if simplicity results is easier coding it will result is a better user experience with the same amount of development resources
27 22:57:00 tommost Understand that XHTML is simply HTML in XML. There are no new features, aside from those made available by namespaces. There is no advantage to XHTML that can actually be used in a cross-platform way.
27 22:58:00 andy753421 cross-platform?
27 22:59:00 andy753421 you mean in different web browsers or something?
27 22:59:00 tommost Yes.
27 22:59:00 andy753421 just because browsers don't support something doesn't mean it's a bad idea
27 23:00:00 tommost It means its not something that's useful.
27 23:00:00 tommost s/its/it's/
27 23:00:00 andy753421 not right now, but it could be in the future
27 23:00:00 tommost It has been 9 years since XHTML was created.
27 23:00:00 tommost Don't you think that it would have caught on by now if there were any real advantage?
27 23:01:00 andy753421 and i imagine that for the past 9 years people have been saying 'XHTML is not useful' :P
27 23:01:00 tommost No, actually it has been evangelized quite a lot.
27 23:02:00 tommost (As part of the "web standards" drive.)
27 23:02:00 tommost But HTML 4.01 is a standard too, and using it means that you're not sending an invalid document to 80% of today's browsers.
27 23:02:00 tommost Frankly, XHTML 1.0 and 1.1 are a dead end—(X)HTML 5 is the future.
27 23:03:00 andy753421 I imagine the fact that XHTML hasn't caught on is mostly due to HTML being `good enough'
27 23:03:00 tommost Yes. Along with XHTML not being better enough.
27 23:04:00 andy753421 probably a similar reason that people use windows, instead of unix, and unix instead of plan 9
27 23:04:00 tommost And I wouldn't say that XHTML hasn't "caught on".
27 23:04:00 andy753421 you're right, XHTML isn't better _enough_ but that doesn't mean it's not better
27 23:04:00 tommost It's quite common.
27 23:04:00 tommost Merely always invalid.
27 23:04:00 tommost How is it better?
27 23:04:00 andy753421 it's easier to write parsers, it's faster to parse, etc
27 23:06:00 tommost That's not much of an advantage.
27 23:06:00 andy753421 it's still and advantage
27 23:06:00 andy753421 maybe not _enough_ of an advantage to get everyone to use it..
27 23:06:00 tommost HTML doesn't break all the time. That's an advantage.
27 23:06:00 andy753421 no it's not
27 23:06:00 tommost Yes it is.
27 23:06:00 andy753421 why is it an advantage to HTML?
27 23:07:00 tommost Because XHTML does break (and if it doesn't, its being parsed as HTML).
27 23:07:00 tommost s/its/it's/
27 23:07:00 andy753421 (specifically, how is the html specification better because of it)
27 23:07:00 andy753421 if you write valid xhtml it doesn't break all the time either
27 23:08:00 tommost True.
27 23:08:00 tommost Until it does.
27 23:08:00 auchter i haven't been following the discussion, but i see nothing wrong with a browser not even bothering rendering a document if it's not well formed
27 23:09:00 tommost auchter: Not trying to render it is wrong because it means that the browser will never be adopted by users.
27 23:09:00 auchter or, web developers will start paying attention to what they're doing
27 23:09:00 tommost Part of the point of the web is that it's easy to author documents.
27 23:09:00 andy753421 tommost: what your saying is that html is better because programmers don't write good xhtml
27 23:10:00 andy753421 tommost: if you're going to go down that route, what percent of web users know html?
27 23:10:00 tommost In part, yes. Also because 80% of the world uses a browser that doesn't support it *at all*.
27 23:11:00 andy753421 i still don't see how that makes html better
27 23:12:00 tommost Also, XHTML documents (when sent with the proper mime-type) get an XML DOM instead of an HTML one, which breaks scripts.
27 23:12:00 andy753421 still not a problem with xhtml
27 23:12:00 tommost Yes, it is.
27 23:12:00 andy753421 pretty sure it's not, pretty sure the scripts are the ones breaking
27 23:12:00 tommost They shouldn't have written a specification with that problem in the first place.
27 23:12:00 tommost Or pretty much any of these other problems.
27 23:12:00 tommost There's just no point to XHTML.
27 23:13:00 andy753421 so you're saying that xhtml should be complete backwards compatible with html?
27 23:13:00 andy753421 i'm pretty sure the point of xhtml was to not be compatible..
27 23:14:00 tommost I'm saying that it's stupid to create a specification that doesn't add anything besides a feature as esoteric as namespaces, consuming mindshare for years when it could be better spent on adding *useful* features and actually *advancing the state of the web.*
27 23:16:00 andy753421 well, you're probably right in saying that there's better things people could have done with their time than write xhtml, but that still doesn't mean that html is better than xhtml
27 23:16:00 tommost What's the point of having a simpler parser? You still need to keep around a complex one for HTML.
27 23:16:00 andy753421 not if everybody adopts xhtml
27 23:17:00 tommost And no browser actually has a validating XML parser, anyway.
27 23:17:00 tommost Everyone adopting XHTML is something that would never, ever, ever happen.
27 23:17:00 tommost It's more likely for everyone to switch to gopher.
27 23:18:00 andy753421 why's it something that would never, ever, ever happen?
27 23:19:00 tommost It's not the way the web works.
27 23:19:00 tommost There's still stuff around from before XHTML was created.
27 23:19:00 andy753421 yes, there's still stuff around for 16 bit dos as well..
27 23:19:00 tommost Not a valid comparison.
27 23:20:00 tommost Besides, people *do* still use DOS.
27 23:20:00 Mishtal so, im not an expert on web-based stuff, but... can you do something that will dramatically improve the value of a webpage using XHTML that you cant do in HTML, or that is much more difficult to do in HTML than XHTML?
27 23:20:00 tommost You can embed SVG, for the 10% of the population that can see it.
27 23:20:00 tommost Also MathML.
27 23:21:00 Mishtal what is SVG? and, i can take a stab at MathML, but i dont believe ive ever seen it being used
27 23:21:00 andy753421 SVG is vector graphics
27 23:21:00 auchter i can't believe someone hasn't heard of SVG
27 23:22:00 Mishtal ah
27 23:22:00 auchter let alone anyone using a browser that doesn't support it
27 23:22:00 andy753421 'scalable' vector graphics, as opposed to the unsalable versions
27 23:22:00 Mishtal auchter: i cant believe that i would have ever needed to know what scalable vector graphics are outside of the realm of CAD. it doesnt hold my interest, so i dont actively seek any information on it
27 23:23:00 auchter it's not used much for CAD, but about half of the graphs and such on wikipedia
27 23:23:00 andy753421 tommost: can we agree that if xhtml had been invented in place of html the world would be a better place, however at the current state of time it's probably not a good idea to support only xhtml?
27 23:23:00 Mishtal tommost: why is it important to be able to embed SVG rather than just adding the image with the format "<img blahblahblahblah>"
27 23:23:00 tommost http://intertwingly.net/blog/
27 23:23:00 tommost That guy does it.
27 23:23:00 auchter *scalable*
27 23:24:00 tommost andy753421: No, we can't. Part of what makes the web so popular is the ease of authoring content for it.
27 23:24:00 andy753421 oh sad me..
27 23:24:00 tommost Note that Sam Ruby is an intense standards buff; he does work on HTML 5.
27 23:24:00 auchter i think some barrier to authoring on the web would do a world of good.
27 23:25:00 tommost You're wrong.
27 23:25:00 andy753421 haha, i agree with achter, but that's a conversation for another time
27 23:25:00 andy753421 i don't see xhtml being that much more difficult to write than html
27 23:25:00 auchter hell, HTML is too difficult for some people, look at myspace
27 23:25:00 auchter no barrier to entry, and what a bloody cesspool
27 23:25:00 tommost So?
27 23:26:00 andy753421 </li> is a bit annoying, but not that bad
27 23:27:00 andy753421 also I don't think html was intended to be written entirely by hand
27 23:27:00 tommost andy753421: Do you know anything about how to fix the rhitrobotics.org domain name?
27 23:27:00 andy753421 tommost: probably
27 23:28:00 andy753421 it still love that the worlds first web browser came with a WYSIWYG html editor built in :)
27 23:29:00 andy753421 tommost: what ip address does the domain need to point to?
27 23:29:00 tommost http://137.112.99.22:8080/team/wiki/TracSyntaxColoring
27 23:29:00 tommost That IP.
27 23:30:00 auchter is that one of the static ones we have?
27 23:30:00 andy753421 yep
27 23:30:00 auchter we should get a PTR record back to rhitrobotics.org for that
27 23:32:00 andy753421 tommost: which server is the robotics's nameserver?
27 23:33:00 tommost None is set up at the moment.
27 23:33:00 andy753421 well we need to do that first
27 23:33:00 tommost I appoint you.
27 23:33:00 tommost Because I don't know how.
27 23:34:00 andy753421 what does the robotics network setup look like at the moment anyway?
27 23:34:00 tommost The black machine is linked above.
27 23:34:00 tommost That's it.
27 23:34:00 auchter i like it.
27 23:34:00 andy753421 ok, the black machine going to be the server correct?
27 23:35:00 tommost We only have one working hard drive, so there isn't much choice.
27 23:35:00 tommost I guess so.
27 23:35:00 andy753421 alright
27 23:35:00 Mishtal i can donate a 60 gig 1.25 inch sata if someone has the adapter for it...
27 23:35:00 Mishtal (and by donate, i mean borrow for an extended time)
27 23:41:00 Mishtal or not...
27 23:43:00 tommost I don't think that we have an adapter for it.
27 23:45:00 andy753421 did we ever talk about naming conventions for robotics machines?
27 23:45:00 tommost We agreed that izanagi was a stupid name.
27 23:45:00 andy753421 alright, sounds good
27 23:45:00 tommost I called it "black" because it's black.
27 23:45:00 andy753421 well, rt-black
27 23:45:00 tommost Yeah.
27 23:46:00 andy753421 we can probably skip the rt- once we have rhitrobotics.org up
27 23:46:00 tommost I just wanted to avoid the possibility of collisions, since its not a public-facing name.
27 23:46:00 andy753421 alright..
27 23:48:00 tommost Do we want to have just one Trac installation shared among all projects or one for each project?
27 23:48:00 andy753421 just one
27 23:49:00 tommost Okay.
27 23:49:00 tommost What about subversion repositories?
27 23:49:00 tommost I don't think that Trac can handle multiple repositories.
27 23:50:00 andy753421 i believe it can
27 23:50:00 andy753421 i thought it didn't but i recently installed a copy of track and think that maybe that got changed recently
27 23:50:00 tommost Hmmm. I'll look into it.
27 23:51:00 auchter it doesn't really matter to me whether the repositories are separate or not
28 00:14:00 tommost Genshi: "...conceptually similar to running an XSLT transformation...". Oh pain.
28 00:14:00 tommost Not that the concept is similar; it's the syntax that is painful.
28 00:14:00 tommost s/similar/painful/
28 01:34:00 andy753421 tommost: try `dig @137.112.99.22 www.rhitrobotics.org'
28 02:20:00 shadghost hi
28 02:21:00 andy753421 hello?
28 02:21:00 shadghost how is it going?
28 02:22:00 andy753421 swell
28 02:22:00 shadghost thats good
28 02:23:00 shadghost and you need to yell at jon for getting the eeepc 1000h
28 02:24:00 shadghost pokes kleinjt
28 02:24:00 kleinjt hi
28 02:24:00 kleinjt sorry I haven't been around, I forgot my nickserv password so I've been too ashamed to show up
28 02:24:00 shadghost shakes his head
28 02:25:00 shadghost you should talk to russell
28 02:25:00 kleinjt auchter: yeah, the stacking idea is an increase in complexity, and unnecessary
28 02:26:00 kleinjt I feel the same way about CAN, considering I failed at getting I2C to work..
28 02:26:00 kleinjt what does russell know? :/
28 02:26:00 shadghost he wroks at freenode
28 02:27:00 kleinjt Nah, he works for the open source labs, he denied being involved in freenode
28 02:27:00 shadghost o lol
28 02:27:00 shadghost but still
28 02:27:00 kleinjt yeah, he wouldn't grant markbot protection
28 02:28:00 shadghost but he would know people
28 02:28:00 shadghost o
28 02:29:00 shadghost THAT bot
28 02:30:00 shadghost but i think the main reasion i would want a 901 over a 1000 is the battory life
28 02:30:00 kleinj1 also, auchter, I haven't worked on robotics much (at all). I've been wasting my time painting, hiking/biking, and learning perl
28 02:31:00 kleinj1 eh? It isn't that big of a difference.
28 02:31:00 shadghost and i like the size of my 701, it fits in a bag designed for a hd quite nice
28 02:32:00 kleinj1 I would not be happy with a 7" screen :P
28 02:32:00 shadghost i am meeting more and more people who say that
28 02:33:00 kleinj1 anyways, what won me over to the 1000h was this review: http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU
28 02:35:00 shadghost strangles kleinj1
28 02:36:00 shadghost goes to bed...
28 02:36:00 shadghost i have to work and make ice cream cake tormmrow
28 02:37:00 shadghost hi octavious
28 02:41:00 shadghost http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mj-Sq2oeo&feature=related
28 02:45:00 andy753421 I think luglog needs to be refactored as an awk script
28 06:19:00 auchter andy753421: GNU awk *does* have network support...
28 07:51:00 tommost makes a strangled noise\
28 15:09:00 andy753421 evince should have a mode to fit to the text width
28 18:34:00 Blazeix Is anybody else tired of hearing about Cuil?
28 18:34:00 Blazeix Everywhere I go, I see an article on it . Even BBC was talking about it.
28 18:34:00 tommost I have no idea what that is.
28 18:35:00 tommost Though I was in Colorado all of last week.
28 18:35:00 Blazeix Really, it just got big today. Its the 'google-killer' of the month
28 18:35:00 tommost Oh, I did hear about that.
28 18:35:00 auchter i still haven't heard of it
28 18:35:00 Blazeix But arstechnica, reddit, digg, slashdot, etc. are all running gushing articles on it.
28 18:36:00 tommost Hehe.
28 18:36:00 andy753421 it has an interesting UI, to bad the results suck
28 18:36:00 Blazeix yeah, I love the theme. But I've yet to see a pertinent search result.
28 18:37:00 auchter searching for plan 9 yielded not bad results
28 18:37:00 tommost Why is all of the text aliased?
28 18:37:00 auchter because sane people avoid xft
28 18:37:00 tommost Oh, Calibri.
28 18:41:00 Blazeix Interesting, when I search for the same term over and over, the results change.
28 18:41:00 Mishtal according to Cuil :: No results because of high load... Due to excessive load, our servers didn't return results. Please try your search again.
28 18:41:00 Mishtal i wont be returning to their webpage... ever
28 18:41:00 andy753421 auchter: speaking of fonts, if you haven't done it already, put this in ~/.Xdefaults, http://pastebin.com/m119b1d7d
28 18:42:00 Blazeix I guess I crashed it with my repeated searches.
28 18:42:00 Morasique Mishtal: I've heard that's a big problem, you'd think Google would know how to handle high load
28 18:44:00 auchter andy753421: ah, cool tip. thanks
28 18:44:00 Blazeix Well, the creators are former google employees. Maybe they're "former" for a reason.
28 18:47:00 Morasique oh, right, i completely got cuil mixed up with knol
28 18:47:00 Morasique damn short names
28 18:51:00 Mishtal Morasique: yea, ive Never had google tell me that it couldnt handle my request. cuil, on the other hand, failed at my first try at using their site. i dont plan to return.
28 18:54:00 Morasique i tried it once; i didn't have any problems but i didn't see any reason to switch either
28 18:54:00 Morasique this article is idiocy: http://www.junauza.com/2008/07/linux-secret-lovers.html
28 18:55:00 Morasique some people like linux so much they make windows look like it? what?
28 18:56:00 tommost Lots of Windows users that customize stuff make use of open source iconsets... that explains the first few.
28 18:57:00 tommost I've done similar things. I've also used alternative shells under Windows to make it suck less.
28 18:57:00 tommost A side effect is that it looks more like Linux.
28 18:58:00 auchter i find it sad that i know the title and the name of the person who made that first wall paper.
28 18:59:00 tommost Indeed. KDE?
28 18:59:00 auchter no, gravity well by precursor. (believe it or not, i used to rather enjoy customizing the way my wm looked)
28 19:00:00 auchter and that was 9 bloody years ago, as i just looked it up
28 19:01:00 tommost Until I switched to Linux I had long given up making Windows look non-crappy. I had also largely given up making it work better.
28 19:01:00 tommost Then I got Compiz.
28 19:15:00 andy753421 tommost: as for the rhitrobotics.org domain, I can't seem to get UDP traffic on port 53 though to rose-hulman for some reason, other than that I think it's good to go
28 19:16:00 tommost Okay.
28 19:16:00 tommost I'm working on Trac right now.
28 19:19:00 andy753421 it seems to be getting dropped by 137.112.9.25
28 19:47:00 auchter http://plan9.phire.org/wiki/rhlug_plan_9/index.html
28 19:48:00 tommost </subliminal>?
28 19:48:00 auchter indeed.
28 19:50:00 auchter private namespaces are cool. bind /usr/auchtemm/web /usr/web/users/auchtemm
28 19:50:00 auchter then, just one rewite rule, and: http://auchtemm.plan9.phire.org
28 19:51:00 auchter also: http://plan9.phire.org/sys/doc/index.html
28 19:51:00 auchter http://plan9.phire.org/sys/man/index.html
28 19:52:00 andy753421 auchter: is that in inferno or vx32?
28 19:53:00 andy753421 or is that the machine we stole for plan9?
28 19:53:00 auchter the machine in the lab
28 19:53:00 auchter (since it's finally up.)
28 19:54:00 tommost bows
28 19:54:00 auchter freya's still not up, though...
28 19:54:00 tommost That's a mystery to me.
28 19:55:00 auchter reboot it next time you get over there
28 19:55:00 tommost Sure.
28 19:55:00 auchter no rush, i'm doing fine on addiator
28 19:55:00 auchter i've got it all to myself, too ;)
28 19:55:00 tommost :D
28 19:56:00 auchter of course you'd have to login right as i say that
28 19:56:00 tommost I was already logged in.
28 19:56:00 tommost But my AFS ticket seems to have expired somehow.
28 19:57:00 auchter heh, mine's been expired for days.
28 19:58:00 tommost I just decreased the renew interval on my script from 5 hours to one.
28 19:59:00 tommost Also, ticket renewal stopped working for me several months ago.
28 19:59:00 tommost Has anyone else had that problem?
28 20:03:00 andy753421 auchter: so is that wiki and such running under your username?
28 20:03:00 auchter wikifs is under my username, httpd is running as none
28 20:04:00 auchter the permissions on the wiki are 666 though (because none needs to write to it)
28 20:08:00 auchter if you want to kill httpd, you'll have to log in as bootes, chmod 666 /proc/(httpd pid)/note, then echo kill > /proc/(httpd pid)/note (since it's running as none)
28 20:11:00 auchter oh boy, rumours about new apple products on slashdot.
28 20:12:00 auchter thinks slashdot is becoming a bit too much like digg...
28 20:12:00 tommost gasps
28 20:12:00 tommost chokes on his rice
28 20:35:00 Morasique any idea why anything opengl would freeze my whole machine?
28 20:35:00 Morasique including glxinfo
28 20:36:00 tommost ATI?
28 20:36:00 Morasique god no
28 20:37:00 tommost Well, I don't have any more easy answers.
28 20:39:00 Morasique gentoo wiki describes the exact problem, they have a helpful tip for how to disable opengl completely
28 20:39:00 Morasique apparently actually wanting to use opengl is out of the question
28 20:39:00 tommost +1 Gentoo wiki
28 20:45:00 Morasique who has a captcha check to search a forum? that makes no sense, what bots spend their time searching forums?
28 20:45:00 Morasique wow. it also only allows one search per minutes. wtf
28 20:45:00 Morasique s/minutes/minute/
28 20:45:00 tommost Where is this?
28 20:48:00 Morasique nvnews.net
28 20:49:00 tommost Wow. Fail.
28 21:40:00 shadghost `JON!!!!
28 21:40:00 tommost Jon Jon Jon!!!
28 21:41:00 kleinjt Jon Jon!
28 21:41:00 Morasique tommost: yes, definitely encourage this
28 21:42:00 tommost ChanServ: What are you up to?
28 21:42:00 Morasique ChanServ hates you
28 21:42:00 shadghost serfbot: kill ChanServ
28 21:44:00 tommost shadghost: I'm sorry. He can't hear you.
28 21:44:00 shadghost ya... serfbot is in every outher channle i am in
28 21:45:00 tommost You don't appear to be in any other channels.
28 21:46:00 shadghost i am in 2 outhers
28 21:46:00 kleinjt yeah, you are only on #rhlug
28 21:46:00 tommost shadghost: Don't lie. We know better than you.
28 21:47:00 shadghost last time my channles were listed a certaint bot went to the outher channles and started spaming
28 21:48:00 tommost looks thoughtful
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- shadghost [n=shadghos@ubuntu.cs.uaf.edu]
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- ircname : shadghost
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- channels : #squarebanks #rhlug #modzer0
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- server : clarke.freenode.net [Fremont, California, US]
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- : is identified to services
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- : is signed on as account shadghost
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- idle : 0 days 0 hours 0 mins 28 secs [signon: Sun Jul 13 06:56:53 2008]
28 21:48:00 shadghost 17:43 -!- End of WHOIS
28 21:49:00 auchter mode -m
28 21:50:00 shadghost o great
28 21:50:00 kleinjt this game is fun
28 21:50:00 kleinjt Nick: kleinjt
28 21:50:00 kleinjt Username: n=Jon@132-155-58-66.gci.net
28 21:50:00 kleinjt Real name: purple
28 21:50:00 kleinjt Server: kubrick.freenode.net (Los Angeles, The Moon, Canada)
28 21:50:00 kleinjt Currently on: #rhlug #madeupchannel #imnotreallyonethis
28 21:50:00 kleinjt Idle for: 3 minutes
28 21:50:00 kleinjt Online since: 7/28/1970 3:39:56 PM
28 21:51:00 auchter actually, i think +m was a good idea.
28 21:51:00 auchter has no one else heard of the many sites available for pasting large amounts of text?
28 21:52:00 auchter dpaste.com, rafb.net/paste, pastebin.com for starters
28 21:52:00 kleinjt "Online since: 7/28/1970 3:39:56 PM", I was point out that pasting text was not proof of being on channels
28 21:52:00 kleinjt It was a failed parody, of sorts
28 21:53:00 auchter well, at least a few lines of text are better than that horrible lyrics bot earlier this year, haha
28 21:54:00 kleinjt lyrics bot?
28 21:54:00 kleinjt I missed a lot this summer, I don't recall any of those
28 21:54:00 auchter that was during the year
28 21:55:00 Morasique kleinjt knows nothing about horrible bots
28 21:55:00 Morasique nothing at all
28 23:01:00 Blazeix Morasique: I just read that wikipedia page on Brfxxccxxmnpcccclllmmnprxvclmnckssqlbb11116
28 23:01:00 Blazeix poor little kid.
28 23:02:00 Blazeix For other people, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brfxxccxxmnpcccclllmmnprxvclmnckssqlbb11116
28 23:02:00 Morasique indeed. it's like when i talk about all the horrible experiments i want to run on my own kids, except i don't actually plan to do it
28 23:03:00 Blazeix The best part of the article is the last sentence, it really makes the kid sound pathetic.
28 23:05:00 Morasique i look forward to the newspaper headline "Brfxxccxxmnpcccclllmmnprxvclmnckssqlbb11116 implicated in double homicide; claims parents deserved it"
28 23:13:00 auchter that's awesome.
28 23:13:00 auchter remind's me of zappa's kids
28 23:13:00 auchter s/'//
28 23:15:00 auchter "They had four children: Moon Unit, Dweezil, Ahmet Emuukha Rodan and Diva Thin Muffin Pigeen."
28 23:19:00 Blazeix Diva Thin Muffin?
28 23:19:00 Blazeix That might be the best name ever.
28 23:19:00 Morasique ZetaSyanthis?
28 23:19:00 Blazeix No, better than that even.
28 23:19:00 ZetaSyanthis Yeah, swapped the name for my new standard one
28 23:19:00 Morasique ah
28 23:20:00 ZetaSyanthis I have about a bazillion logins and passwords, so I'm consolidating the usernames a bit to make it easier to remember
28 23:20:00 ZetaSyanthis anyways, random question
28 23:21:00 ZetaSyanthis I'm trying to replace all instances of a string within several files with another string... what's the util that does that?
28 23:21:00 Morasique sounds like sed probably
28 23:21:00 Morasique with a bash loop around it
28 23:22:00 Morasique although sed can't write to the same file it's editing. there might be a better way, andy753421 probably knows
28 23:22:00 Morasique s/editing/processing/
28 23:23:00 ZetaSyanthis nods
28 23:24:00 auchter Morasique: sed -i
28 23:24:00 ZetaSyanthis I'm playing around with django and the way I named something is annoying me
28 23:24:00 Morasique oh, cool
28 23:24:00 Morasique yeah, that's probably the best way then
28 23:24:00 ZetaSyanthis speaking of which, django is nuts
28 23:25:00 Morasique actually, sed takes multiple filenames too, you don't even need the loop
28 23:25:00 Morasique sed defines the tool you want
28 23:25:00 Morasique ZetaSyanthis: what's wrong with django? i've never used it
28 23:25:00 auchter i don't think i'd be able to live without sed and grep.
28 23:25:00 ZetaSyanthis nothing's wrong, it's nuts in a good way
28 23:26:00 ZetaSyanthis very very nice
28 23:26:00 Morasique i use awk a lot too
28 23:26:00 Morasique ZetaSyanthis: ah. that's good then
28 23:26:00 Morasique i should take the time to learn awk well
28 23:27:00 auchter i should take the time to learn awk at all
28 23:27:00 auchter i know { print $1 } (maybe) off the top of my head
28 23:27:00 Morasique that's just about all i ever do too
28 23:27:00 Morasique i know how to set the field separator and print a field, that's basically what i use it for
28 23:27:00 auchter i like andy753421's idea of re-writing luglog in GNU awk
28 23:27:00 Morasique it's like a glorified explode/split function
28 23:28:00 Morasique wow. i never need to read digg comments again: http://bp3.blogger.com/_lE8tUR-qWGU/SIpA-TI6b3I/AAAAAAAAAwk/Y1T8J278rUQ/s1600-h/oh-well-digg.png
28 23:28:00 Morasique not that i ever needed to before
28 23:30:00 auchter someone should make sed a target for gcc
28 23:30:00 ZetaSyanthis Morasique: What took you so long?
28 23:32:00 andy753421 auchter: take compilers and see if curt will let you write java compiler that complies to sed :)
28 23:33:00 ZetaSyanthis actually, I've discovered the worst compiler ever created
28 23:33:00 auchter i have two thoughts on that: 1. i'll probably go mad an hour into it, 2. curt would probably throw me out for even suggesting such a thing, haha
28 23:34:00 ZetaSyanthis Altera has a program for their FPGAs called the Nios II SOPC Builder...
28 23:35:00 ZetaSyanthis It's written in java and uses java to compile both C and Verilog/VHDL, but part of the compilation is in perl as well.... and the three main programs tie together using bash scripts via a proprietary cygwin backend
28 23:35:00 Morasique auchter: curt would love it, #1 would probably be a problem though
28 23:35:00 ZetaSyanthis I cannot fathom why someone would possibly want to do that
28 23:35:00 Morasique ZetaSyanthis: that's the greatest thing i've ever heard :D
28 23:36:00 ZetaSyanthis and their C IDE for their embedded processor is a stripped down and ruined eclipse rip-off
28 23:36:00 ZetaSyanthis but you have to use it or you can't program the damned thing, because the command line utils are broken >.<
28 23:37:00 ZetaSyanthis by the way, this is version 8 of the software....
28 23:38:00 ZetaSyanthis suspects the sheer stupidity has now slain several members of the chatroom
28 23:38:00 auchter my most hacked together thing this summer was some C under plan9 tied together with some rc to communicate over a socket to a server running a java program
28 23:38:00 auchter (yes, i use plan9 a work.)
28 23:38:00 Blazeix auchter: nice. I'm stuck in windows-world at work.
28 23:39:00 andy753421 auchter: so the real question.. does your boss know that you use plan 9 at work ;)
28 23:39:00 auchter i used windows for a few hours my first day, then decided that i couldn't tolerate it any more
28 23:40:00 auchter andy753421: yeah, i only use it for quick stuff, i eventually redid it all in C
28 23:40:00 auchter but it's so much easier to just cat /net/tcp/ctl, &c.
28 23:52:00 ZetaSyanthis auchter, we'll have to talk about plan 9 at some point
28 23:52:00 ZetaSyanthis I'd like to learn quite a bit more about it
28 23:53:00 Morasique this sounds suspiciously like a date
28 23:54:00 ZetaSyanthis O.o
28 23:55:00 tommost http://rhitrobotics.org:8080/
28 23:55:00 andy753421 and for those outside rose-hulman: http://137.112.99.22:8080/
28 23:56:00 ZetaSyanthis interesting
28 23:57:00 auchter nice indeed
28 23:57:00 auchter ZetaSyanthis: just start using plan9, either 9vx or drawterm into plan9.phire.org
28 23:57:00 shadghost tommost: how you like squarebanks?
28 23:57:00 Morasique i should mess with trac
28 23:57:00 auchter (9vx is probably easier.)
28 23:57:00 andy753421 I think you're missing a few links
28 23:57:00 andy753421 other than that it looks good
28 23:57:00 tommost shadghost: Entertaining.
28 23:57:00 tommost andy753421: Yeah, it's definitely a work in progress.
28 23:58:00 tommost The Trac stylesheet makes it very difficult to override things.
28 23:58:00 andy753421 then don't override them :P
28 23:58:00 tommost There are a ton of things that are styled *like* links, but aren't really.
28 23:58:00 tommost Yeah, I'm leaving most of it intact.
28 23:58:00 shadghost if you want to you can stay there
28 23:58:00 tommost I just had to get rid of the weird indent on wiki pages.
28 23:59:00 tommost shadghost: Nah, I'm okay.
28 23:59:00 tommost I need to get stuff done.
28 23:59:00 shadghost is with 2 of the people in there right now includeing the creater of serfbot
28 23:59:00 andy753421 there's weird indent on wiki pages?
28 23:59:00 tommost In the default Trac stylesheet everything but the headings are indented 18px.
28 23:59:00 tommost It's odd.
29 00:00:00 andy753421 oh, i like that
29 00:00:00 andy753421 also, the heading are freaking huge
29 00:00:00 andy753421 I like the top and left side though
29 00:00:00 tommost Yeah, I'm going to have to decrease its size—Trac likes long headings.
29 00:00:00 tommost This, for example: http://rhitrobotics.org:8080/wiki/WikiStart?action=diff&version=1
29 00:01:00 andy753421 also, fonts' that big are hard for me to read
29 00:02:00 tommost Yeah, it looked nice in the mock-up but I'm not liking it so much in the final product.
29 00:02:00 andy753421 yea, i think that much white space makes thing difficult
29 00:03:00 tommost Hm? No, whitespace is good.
29 00:06:00 andy753421 help/guide index page
29 00:06:00 tommost Hm?
29 00:06:00 tommost http://rhitrobotics.org:8080/wiki/TracGuide
29 00:06:00 andy753421 it takes like 2000 px to display what normally takes like 800
29 00:07:00 andy753421 i can't fit it all on my screen, an i'm running at 1920x1200 resolution
29 00:08:00 tommost That's because the font size is 14px, not the standard Trac 13px.
29 00:08:00 andy753421 there's also like 8 pixles between all the lines
29 00:09:00 tommost How is that bad?
29 00:09:00 andy753421 it makes it hard to read?
29 00:09:00 tommost It makes it easier to read.
29 00:09:00 andy753421 i disagree
29 00:10:00 auchter i have to agree with andy
29 00:10:00 auchter especially the spacing under "The Version Control Subsystem", for example
29 00:11:00 tommost Oh, that shouldn't be there. I'm working on fixing that right now.
29 00:11:00 andy753421 i still think there's way to much whitespace
29 00:11:00 auchter indeed.
29 00:12:00 andy753421 personally, it think the trac guys did pretty good with the in-page styles
29 00:12:00 tommost How about now?
29 00:12:00 andy753421 still way to much
29 00:12:00 auchter still too much between the bullets
29 00:13:00 auchter and look below "TracRevisionLog"
29 00:13:00 tommost Yeah, I'm casing that for being the last child.
29 00:13:00 auchter and "Table of Contents"
29 00:13:00 auchter and currently available...
29 00:13:00 auchter the bullet spacing is bad, but not awful to me, but the spacing between different elements is too much
29 00:14:00 tommost Yes, I agree, I'm working on it.
29 00:14:00 tommost Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a :last-child pseudo-class :(
29 00:14:00 andy753421 um, how about just no spacing around <ul><ol><dl>'s
29 00:14:00 auchter this is why the internet should use latex
29 00:15:00 tommost Indeed. Yay for PDF everywhere!~
29 00:16:00 auchter yeah, i forgot that PDF and latex were synonymous
29 00:17:00 andy753421 you can generate html from latex ;)
29 00:17:00 tommost Unfortunately, LaTeX would be even slower to render than the currently painful state of web browsers, what with HTML and all.~
29 00:17:00 auchter not if the compilation happens server side, once per document change
29 00:17:00 auchter no more of this DOM crap
29 00:17:00 tommost But then you couldn't resize the window.
29 00:17:00 tommost And we're back to PDF.
29 00:18:00 auchter i resize my postscript viewer all the time!
29 00:18:00 andy753421 auchter: but your text doesn't re-wrap
29 00:19:00 auchter of course not, it doesn't wrap when i use a magnifying glass on a newspaper either
29 00:19:00 auchter and that's what the internet should be aiming for, to be just like a newspaper.
29 00:19:00 andy753421 i disagree
29 00:19:00 auchter complete with magnifying glass and all.
29 00:19:00 tommost You know what I do to pretty much every web site? I bump up the text size. Nicely scalable text is *very* important to me.
29 00:19:00 andy753421 unless that was completely sarcastic, and i totally missed it
29 00:19:00 auchter and now, i'm going to sleep because i fear my humor is getting a bit dry
29 00:19:00 tommost I'm dying for Geko to get hyphenation.
29 00:20:00 auchter (yes, everything after " this is why the internet should use latex" was pure flamebait/sarcasm/extremely hilarious to me)
29 00:27:00 auchter hyphenation+justified text will make me very happy.
29 01:45:00 andy753421 *read the latex discussion on slashdot*
29 01:46:00 andy753421 I think latex just needs to be refactored, and tables fixed, and it would be all better
29 01:47:00 andy753421 namely so that I don't have to run 8 commands and generate a half dozen output files just to get a darn pdf
29 06:27:00 auchter tables in latex are a bit of a pain, and the latex/bibtex dance you need to do is a bit annoying (that's what mkfiles are for)
29 06:28:00 auchter but really, is there anything better? looking at the slashdot comments, it doesn't look lke it
29 08:09:00 auchter stylistic question of the day: a. `char* buf', b. `char *buf', c. `char * buf', d. `char*buf'
29 08:09:00 auchter i prefer b
29 12:48:00 Morasique "I've never bothered to learn to touch type either. And after all these years my brain seems to know where to aim for the right keys even when I'm not watching the keyboard."
29 15:35:00 Morasique octavious: i hate you and your frequent leaving and joining
29 16:06:00 Morasique i get a "reset password" page everytime i login to our timekeeping program. i guess this means my password expired; it would be helpful if it mentioned that somewhere
29 16:10:00 Morasique it's amazing to open file monitor and use a microsoft program. you can watch it open and close the same file handle hundreds of times right in a row when you do something
29 16:17:00 auchter Morasique: i was trying to think of the most absurd reason i could for them doing that
29 16:18:00 auchter the one i came up with is that they arbitrarily limited fd to a 2-bit int, so they can only have 4 file descriptors open. with stdin, stderr, and stdout taking up the first three, processes have to compete for the fourth
29 16:19:00 auchter i found my imagined scenario amusing. this should give you some hint as to how much sleep i got last night
29 16:24:00 auchter on the linux boxes here, the default shell is tcsh. when you press ^D, instead of logging you out, it instructs you to "Please type 'logout' to logout."
29 16:45:00 andy753421 i open and close the same file a lot from shell scripts
29 16:45:00 andy753421 hence the >> operator
29 16:55:00 auchter hah, from the slashdot comments on that latex post: http://blogs.msdn.com/microsoft_office_word/archive/2006/10/20/equation-numbering.aspx
29 16:56:00 auchter glad to see it's much easier to write numbered equations in word than it is in latex
29 16:59:00 Morasique auchter: the best part of using latex for 371 was watching word people have to renumber everything when they changed something
29 17:09:00 auchter i think the best part is being able to use svn blame on the .tex files
29 18:08:00 Morasiqu1 ....i felt left out
29 18:08:00 tommost Booooo.
29 18:10:00 tommost approves
29 19:07:00 octavious what the hell is up with my network today...
29 19:56:00 Mishtal gah! fucking AIM spambots ><
29 19:57:00 tommost I've never gotten spam on instant messaging.
29 19:57:00 tommost I feel neglected.
29 19:57:00 Mishtal wow i envy you
29 19:58:00 Mishtal apparently some random spider found my aim screenname on facebook or something and decided i was a jucy target
29 19:58:00 Mishtal its not like im EVER going to click the damn link -.-
29 19:59:00 auchter this is why blocking everyone not on your list is an excellent idea
29 19:59:00 Mishtal it is, and i would do so if i didnt end up adding and removing people at a fairly steady rate
29 20:23:00 Morasique i've never gotten aim spam either; even icq spam is really rare
29 20:23:00 Mishtal well i want to know who signed up my account to get -.- all -.- of the aim spam ><
29 20:24:00 auchter i remember around 1998-99 ICQ spam was pretty awful.
29 20:27:00 Morasique yeah, back when people knew what icq was
29 20:27:00 Mishtal its been so long... i dont even remember what my account number was...
29 20:28:00 Morasique i still sign in on mine, but i don't talk to anyone on it
29 20:28:00 Morasique icq was way better than aim, i wish aim hadn't killed it
29 20:28:00 Morasique actually, icq was better ten years ago than aim is now. that's depressing
29 20:28:00 tommost How was it better?
29 20:28:00 andy753421 you could change your name?
29 20:30:00 Morasique tommost: it had lots of useful features, i don't remember it very well
29 20:30:00 tommost Did file transfers work?
29 20:30:00 Morasique yeah, and chat rooms, i've always had problems with both on aim
29 20:30:00 Morasique it was really good at chat rooms, it had more of an IRC channels kind of a thing going
29 20:31:00 auchter and it had a horn.
29 21:52:00 Morasique oh, woot off
29 21:52:00 Morasique i should check more often
29 21:52:00 tommost_aorist You're late to the party, I'm afraid.
29 21:52:00 Morasique darn
29 21:54:00 Morasique oh, it just started today
29 21:54:00 Morasique that's not bad
29 21:54:00 tommost_aorist I has been going on all day.
29 21:54:00 tommost_aorist s/^I/It/
29 21:54:00 Morasique well yeah, it always starts at the normal woot time which was almost a day ago. when you said i was late i assumed it was several days old
29 21:55:00 tommost_aorist Oh. No; missing one for that long would be pretty impressive.
29 21:55:00 tommost_aorist I would have been much more mocking.
29 21:56:00 Morasique i check very infrequently; it's likely i've missed whole ones without knowing about it
29 21:57:00 tommost_aorist I always notice because my feed reader gets spammed.
29 21:57:00 tommost_aorist I wish that they wouldn't put Woot-off items on RSS: its usually pointless.
29 21:57:00 Morasique i used to have woot on my rss feed but i took it off for some reason
29 22:06:00 tommost_aorist Odd. This machine doesn't want to resolve domain names.
29 22:09:00 tommost Oh, shit, I forgot to fix that machine's grub config...
29 23:33:00 tommost andy753421: What's the LUG machine's MAC address?
29 23:33:00 tommost auchter: What's the Plan9 box's MAC address?
29 23:34:00 andy753421 00:11:43:6D:E6:99
29 23:35:00 tommost auchter: Nevermind.
29 23:35:00 tommost andy753421: Thanks.
29 23:36:00 tommost It used a whopping 3.62 MB of bandwidth in the last 24 hours.
29 23:43:00 tommost Ooo... I smell a power failure in the making.
29 23:44:00 auchter ooh, maybe freya will magically reappear then
29 23:46:00 auchter awesome, we might be getting storms here tonight too
29 23:47:00 auchter i want to get that plan9 box set up as a proper fileserver, with venti and all
29 23:50:00 Morasique it amazes me when i find real audio clips on the internet. i thought that format died a horrible death years ago
30 00:01:00 Mishtal Morasique: sometimes the most horrible things in life have infinite respawns, so they can keep haunting you... over... and over... ... ...
30 00:02:00 Mishtal post singularity, i wouldnt be surprised if transhumans replaced speach with realmedia encoded sound files
30 00:04:00 Morasique i for one welcome our transhuman realmedia overlords
30 00:05:00 shadghost serfbot: i for one welcome over overloard invaders
30 00:05:00 tommost shadghost: Sorry, he's not here.
30 00:05:00 shadghost i nkow
30 00:05:00 tommost He really should be indexing this channel, though.
30 00:05:00 shadghost you want him here spaming you?
30 00:06:00 shadghost i r in your channle spamming your bot
30 00:08:00 shadghost so?
30 00:09:00 tommost Well, we do have our own markbot. Once kleinjt gets off his ass.
30 00:09:00 shadghost like serfbot?
30 00:10:00 tommost Well, both of them are Markov things.
30 00:10:00 Morasique tommost: no. stop talking before it's too late
30 00:10:00 shadghost last time i meet it all it did was spam
30 00:10:00 shadghost as in coppy
30 00:10:00 Morasique markot is not a "markov" thing, it's a torture bot that also happens to have markov capabilities
30 00:10:00 Morasique s/markot/markbot/
30 00:10:00 tommost Although serfbot gets points for being more original and being written in Perl.
30 00:10:00 tommost I'm not sure that those points are positive, though.
30 00:11:00 shadghost serfbot is seeded with more then 5 channles
30 00:11:00 Morasique i still don't know what serfbot is, i just know it's apparently similar to markbot, which makes it bad
30 00:11:00 tommost Mmm... I should make my own bot, seeding it with some of the channels I hang out in.
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 03:34:48) jorendorff left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 03:34:54) jorendorff [n=jorendor@216.18.1.210] entered the room.
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 04:29:58) jorendorff left the room (quit: ).
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 09:48:20) jorendorff [n=jorendor@216.18.1.210] entered the room.
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 11:23:51) jorendorff left the room (quit: ).
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 11:46:28) jorendorff [n=jorendor@216.18.1.210] entered the room.
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 12:37:18) jorendorff left the room (quit: ).
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 12:40:04) jorendorff [n=jorendor@216.18.1.210] entered the room.
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 13:05:38) jorendorff left the room (quit: ).
30 00:12:00 tommost (2008-07-29 13:08:15) jorendorff [n=jorendor@216.18.1.210] entered the room.
30 00:12:00 shadghost SPAM!
30 00:12:00 shadghost SPAM
30 00:12:00 shadghost spam
30 00:12:00 shadghost spam
30 00:12:00 shadghost is all i read
30 00:14:00 shadghost lol
30 00:14:00 shadghost did i have +v?
30 00:14:00 tommost Nope.
30 00:14:00 tommost I'm just abusing my power.
30 00:15:00 shadghost no you ant
30 00:15:00 shadghost you are just keeping everything the same
30 00:15:00 shadghost gj for pointing out that you are in here twice
30 00:18:00 Morasique tommost: wtf was all that?
30 00:18:00 tommost No idea.
30 00:18:00 tommost Which "all that" are you referring to?
30 00:18:00 Morasique the join/part messages over and over
30 00:19:00 tommost Oh, that's the activity in #python-safethread
30 00:19:00 tommost That's nothing, though.
30 00:20:00 tommost Somebody *spoke* in #parti today!
30 00:20:00 tommost He then left the room and rejoined a while later.
30 00:20:00 tommost Still, I think actual speaking counts for at least 20 join/parts.
30 00:21:00 tommost shadghost: #parti is not a spam channel.
30 00:21:00 shadghost lol
30 00:21:00 shadghost it looks like nothing
30 00:21:00 tommost It's the channel for Xpra.
30 00:22:00 tommost There's a bot that displays commit messages there when elb is working on stuff.
30 00:22:00 shadghost stupid usb speeds
30 00:23:00 shadghost it should be illgle to create a external 500 gigs without esata
30 00:23:00 kleinjt As a libertarian, I do not think it is the role of the federal government to regulate consumer electronics.
30 00:24:00 shadghost me too but still
30 00:24:00 shadghost it is soooooooooooooo slow going at usb rate
30 00:24:00 Morasique /who/who
30 00:24:00 Morasique er. fail
30 00:24:00 tommost Gah! This channel is full of libertarians!
30 00:25:00 shadghost wants to stab the makers of usb
30 00:25:00 shadghost and hug em at the same time
30 00:25:00 tommost does too, for different reasons
30 00:25:00 tommost was too slow
30 00:25:00 Morasique is not surprised
30 00:25:00 tommost Stupid non-keyed connectors.
30 00:25:00 shadghost thinks we all should use /me
30 00:26:00 Morasique that was tried before iirc
30 00:26:00 shadghost is lol'ing
30 00:27:00 shadghost goes to read a paperback
30 00:29:00 tommost goes to brush his teeth
30 00:40:00 Morasique anybody know of an online dictionary that's just plain text?
30 00:41:00 tommost A list of words or an actual dictionary?
30 00:41:00 kleinjt do you want definitions or a list of words?
30 00:41:00 kleinjt :(
30 00:46:00 tommost Try dict.org for a nearly plain-text dictionary.
30 00:47:00 tommost Also see wordnet.
30 00:52:00 Morasique kleinjt: definitions, i use aspell for just spelling the words
30 00:52:00 Morasique tommost: dict.org looks good, thanks
30 00:55:00 shadghost for spelling ther is a irssi plugin
30 00:59:00 Morasique it's not for irc
30 01:01:00 Morasique http://xkcd.com/456/
30 01:02:00 tommost The story of your life.
30 01:06:00 Morasique this is clever: http://www.mikeonads.com/2008/07/13/using-your-browser-url-history-estimate-gender/
30 01:06:00 Morasique not so much the guessing your gender part, but how they tell if you've been to a page or not
30 01:07:00 tommost Oh, using link colors?
30 01:07:00 Morasique yeah
30 01:08:00 tommost Apparently Google is really male‽
30 01:10:00 tommost Oh, the opposite.
30 01:10:00 tommost Er, not really.
30 02:25:00 andy753421 ah what the hell
30 02:25:00 andy753421 apparently Intel is too cool for PS/2 ports
30 02:25:00 andy753421 needs a new keyboard
30 02:26:00 andy753421 any suggestions for something under $20 that doesn't feel like you're typing on play dough?
30 07:35:00 auchter andy753421: if you've got a ps2 keyboard you like, why not just pick up a ps2->usb adapter?
30 09:28:00 Morasique that same guy with the picture in his signature e-mailed us again. somebody really needs to tell him we're not on campus
30 10:20:00 Morasique wow. baby pandas are terrifying. http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008/05/photos-panda-bear-cub-baby-growing-up.php
30 11:39:00 Morasique auchter: http://code.google.com/p/inferno-ds/
30 11:46:00 auchter Morasique: you're a bit behind the times, aren't you ;)
30 11:46:00 andy753421 auchter: yea, that's probably a good idea
30 11:50:00 Morasique is that old? it just came up on reddit, i've never seen it before
30 11:51:00 auchter well, it's not really that old, but it's nothing new either
30 11:51:00 Morasique er. why is the time on the 28th between 01:05 and 02:12 duplicated in the logs like 5 times?
30 12:36:00 Morasique http://twitter.com/curtclifton/statuses/872473832
30 14:19:00 andy753421 i just found the greatest use of for loops ever: http://pastie.org/244235
30 14:52:00 auchter andy753421: not bad, i don't know why i never thought of that... makes it much cleaner
30 14:52:00 auchter doesn't change the fact that strtok is the most evil function
30 14:53:00 auchter and abusing for loops and preprocessor defines to yield nice syntax is fun: #define ll_foreach(ln) for (ln = ln->n; ln->n != NULL; ln = ln->n)
30 15:15:00 andy753421 don't you miss the first item in that?
30 15:21:00 andy753421 haha, fun way to cast an integer to a pointer: `NULL + int_val'
30 15:27:00 auchter andy753421: you would, but it has a dummy node at the start
30 15:28:00 auchter and i never thought of that way of casting, haha
30 15:36:00 Morasique does that NULL thing work? I thought NULL was just defined to be 0
30 15:37:00 auchter Morasique: it's (void *)0x0
30 15:39:00 andy753421 pointer arithmetic is fun: `rows[i] = vals + (unsigned int)rows[i];' != `rows[i] += (unsigned int)vals;'
30 15:40:00 auchter isn't that the fault of the cast in that first statement?
30 15:41:00 andy753421 actually the first statement is correct, but yea it's because of strange casts
30 15:42:00 andy753421 rows is supposed to be an array of pointers, but the locations it points to get moved around by realloc so i'm storing offsets form the start of the realloc in rows and then converting them back to actual pointers at the end
30 15:43:00 andy753421 so rows points to various different locations in vals
30 15:44:00 auchter heh, realloc is the reason why i'm using linked lists. well, that and i only need sequential access
30 15:47:00 andy753421 yea that would probably be cleaner, but this code needs to be really fast :/
30 17:17:00 povilusr-laptop whats a good samba gui viewer for xubuntu?
30 17:22:00 Morasique er. what's a samba gui viewer?
30 17:22:00 Morasique like, it shows the files? because the terminal is an excellent choice
30 17:24:00 andy753421 povilusr-laptop: mount it and use the xubuntu file browser
30 17:24:00 povilusr-laptop mounting is hard though
30 17:24:00 auchter ...
30 17:24:00 povilusr-laptop you have to tyoe stuff
30 17:24:00 povilusr-laptop i wanna click on stuff
30 17:24:00 auchter oh, right.
30 17:25:00 Morasique nautilus? whatever the xfce version is
30 17:25:00 tommost I don't see how you can accomplish mounting something without typing.
30 17:25:00 povilusr-laptop what are the options for samba mount
30 17:25:00 auchter man smbmount ?
30 17:26:00 povilusr-laptop i thought it was an option under normal mount
30 17:26:00 auchter it is, but that man page should cover it
30 17:26:00 Morasique it's pretty much just mount -t smbfs //computer/share target
30 17:28:00 auchter there's a good thread on 9fans today (well, a continuation of an older thread) with more detail on what they're doing with plan 9 on blue gene/l
30 17:31:00 andy753421 9fans needs a threaded view
30 17:32:00 auchter they have one, it just sucks
30 17:32:00 auchter (i think they just added it last week)
30 17:58:00 Mishtal Rule 34: http://notsomotivational.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/amputee_toilet.jpg . no exceptions
30 17:59:00 andy753421 i think i'll wait till i get off work to click on that link
30 17:59:00 tommost The people who have decided to never click on Mishtal's links are wise.
30 17:59:00 Mishtal good idea
30 17:59:00 Mishtal yes, yes they are
30 18:01:00 Morasique Mishtal: it would be ok if you didn't post links here anymore
30 18:01:00 tommost Yes, please.
30 18:01:00 Mishtal alright. no problem
30 18:02:00 Morasique also, gentoo people, i recommend this if you haven't done it already: http://gentoo-wiki.com/TIP_speed_up_portage_with_sqlite
30 18:02:00 Morasique i no longer cry when portage calculates dependencies
30 18:06:00 tommost Why is the default so slow, then? sqlite3 wouldn't exactly be an unreasonable dependency for a default.
30 18:15:00 tommost ?
30 18:15:00 tommost luglog: What happened?
30 18:15:00 tommost Tiny netsplit, I guess.
30 18:15:00 tommost luglog: You should have redundant connections.
30 18:15:00 tommost andy753421: It should make one connection to each server that a person in this channel is connected to.
30 18:15:00 Morasique tommost: -!- Netsplit clarke.freenode.net <-> irc.freenode.net quits: ZetaSyanthis1, luglog
30 18:15:00 auchter i'm about to bring my logger back up since i miss being able to mount the logs...
30 18:16:00 tommost Morasique: Yeah, Pidgin makes them look a lot like regular part messages.
30 18:16:00 tommost So I didn't notice at once.
30 18:33:00 tommost Can anyone tell me where the files that GDM, XDM, KDM, etc. look for lists of window managers are stored?
30 18:33:00 andy753421 tommost: everywhere, their Everywhere!
30 18:33:00 andy753421 really, they are
30 18:34:00 tommost That doesn't help me :(
30 18:38:00 auchter yeah, i always have to go hunting for them whenever i need to change them... luckily, i get around this by not them on my machines
30 18:38:00 andy753421 try `find /etc/X11/ -iname "*session*"', /usr/share/*[Ss]ession, /usr/share/
30 18:40:00 tommost Okay, thanks.
30 18:40:00 andy753421 KDE and XDM might store them other places as well
30 18:40:00 octavious use qingy
30 18:40:00 tommost qingy?
30 18:40:00 auchter shouldn't stuff like this be dictated by freedesktop (or whatever that stupid thing is)
30 18:41:00 tommost Yeah.
30 18:41:00 auchter ooh, i hadn't heard of that...
30 18:41:00 andy753421 auchter: they probably did dictate something, but nobody followed it
30 18:41:00 tommost KDM, XDM, and GDM all seemed aware of the same list of WMS, so I figured there was a standard place for them.
30 18:42:00 andy753421 I think they all just look everywhere, there's also several different file formats for them
30 18:43:00 andy753421 wow, qingy looks really nice
30 18:43:00 andy753421 do I have to install anything or configure my kernel to get directfb to work?
30 18:44:00 auchter yeah, it looks cool, but i really don't get the point of qingy/xdm/gdm/whatever on a computer with only one local user
30 18:44:00 octavious likely. frame buffer support and support for graphical terminals
30 18:44:00 andy753421 what would you do instead?
30 18:45:00 auchter i've got a script called ~/bin/x11 that i run to start graphics
30 18:45:00 andy753421 so you log in with getty/login and then start X11?
30 18:45:00 auchter yes
30 18:46:00 andy753421 alright, isn't that normally what xinit/startx are for?
30 18:46:00 auchter yes, but they don't let me use rc (though i would think they should, ~/.xinitrc should just be a shell script)
30 18:47:00 andy753421 ah, ok
30 18:47:00 tommost .xinitrc and .Xsession are sourced, not executed.
30 18:47:00 auchter well, that explains it
30 18:48:00 andy753421 i think .xinit/.xsession differ between distros but i'm not sure
30 18:50:00 auchter i don't really see the point of using startx over just a plain script anyway
30 18:51:00 tommost Well, for me there seems to be a set of scripts in /etc/X11/Xsession.d that are also part of the system, but you likely don't care about any of that.
30 18:51:00 andy753421 it does things like set up .Xresources, .Xmodmap, etc
30 18:51:00 tommost One of them seems to be an Ubuntu script to fix keyboard media keys, etc.
30 18:52:00 auchter ah
30 18:52:00 andy753421 i think it's like BSD init vs. SysV init, starts is split up into a bunch of files to make tings ``Better'' but it's actually just way more complicated
30 18:53:00 andy753421 s/start\zss/x
30 18:53:00 andy753421 i think it's about time I start using complicated regular expressions for my typos
30 18:53:00 tommost Well, it does seem to make it easier for packages to install stuff vs. a monolithic file.
30 18:53:00 auchter andy753421: yeah, that one tripped me up
30 18:54:00 auchter and bsd ini > sysv init
30 18:57:00 auchter oh the religious wars of software. bsd init vs sysv init, vi vs. emacs, ed vs. the world...
30 19:12:00 octavious i never realized how useful vimdiff could be
30 19:13:00 octavious started using it at work, i like it much better than other diff tools
30 19:13:00 andy753421 yea, it really needs 3 way diff though
30 19:16:00 octavious andy753421: agreed. you mean being able to merge the contents of two buffers into one?
30 19:16:00 andy753421 yea
30 19:27:00 Morasique i should pay attention. if it's still a question, directfb does need to be configured in the kernel
30 19:38:00 octavious see todays xkcd? awesome...
30 19:38:00 octavious i essentially have auchter to thank for getting me into linux...
30 19:39:00 andy753421 eh?
30 19:49:00 Morasique octavious: we try not to thank auchter for anything. ever
30 20:28:00 auchter octavious: haha, you would have eventually used it anyway. all rational people end up using it
30 20:28:00 auchter and then they go mad at some point and start using mac os x, but i haven't quite figured out what triggers that yet...
30 20:29:00 andy753421 didn't octavious use linux before auchter came to rose? or did you guys know each other before rose?
30 20:29:00 auchter andy753421: he went to my high school
30 20:30:00 Morasique auchter: we should do a study on the triggers that lead to mac insanity
30 20:30:00 auchter well, we know one candidate...
30 20:31:00 auchter but i have a feeling that they'd lie. something tells me that they're in denail
30 20:31:00 auchter s/ai/ial/
30 20:31:00 auchter s/l$//
30 20:31:00 Morasique curt?
30 20:31:00 auchter indeed.
30 21:03:00 andy753421 trying to find a decent price on a usb -> ps/2 adapter
30 21:03:00 andy753421 i'm a little worried that the first review I saw was 'OMG AWESOME'
30 21:04:00 auchter i was shocked to discover that my box at work doesn't have ps/2 ports either
30 21:05:00 auchter the first result on google for `usb ps2' seems reasonably priced.
30 21:06:00 Morasique andy753421: it's OMG AWESOME. that should be encouraging :)
30 21:06:00 andy753421 yea, but I don't want to order it online had have to wait for it :/
30 21:07:00 andy753421 and shipping is +$5 anyway
30 21:11:00 auchter andy753421: so what are the specs on the computer you built?
30 21:12:00 andy753421 um, core 2 quad, 2 gb ram, 500 gb sata drive
30 21:12:00 andy753421 and i got a 4U case for my old computer
30 21:13:00 andy753421 http://www.intel.com/products/desktop/motherboards/DQ35JO/DQ35JO-overview.htm
30 21:13:00 andy753421 that's the important part though
30 21:13:00 andy753421 i.e. plan9 support for the sata drive and the gigabit ethernet card
30 21:13:00 andy753421 although I'm not sure how it will work with the integrated graphics
30 21:14:00 andy753421 ~$700
30 21:15:00 auchter wow, that's not bad at all
30 21:16:00 auchter have you considered running xen on that?
30 21:17:00 andy753421 my plan is to partition the disk into a backup partition for a bunch of my data and install plan 9 on the rest
30 21:17:00 andy753421 going to see how long I can go without installing linux :)
30 21:18:00 Morasique if you feel the sudden urge to install mac os make sure you let us know before it's too late
30 21:18:00 auchter haha, well, good luck with that. i'm interested in seeing how that goes
30 21:18:00 andy753421 yea, it might hinge on whether the graphic chip works
30 21:20:00 auchter intel graphics are very well supported under linux, right?
30 21:20:00 andy753421 yea, it's a new-ish chip though
30 21:20:00 andy753421 the MB doesn't have an AGP port so I can't put my old gforce in it either :/
30 21:22:00 auchter yeah, agp's dead
30 21:22:00 andy753421 we'll have to see, but first, i'm off to a pawn shop to look for a sub $15 keyboard
30 21:22:00 auchter haha, good luck
30 21:28:00 auchter gah, the cable company here just had a commercial bragging about using "real numbers" to describe the speed of their connections
30 21:28:00 auchter the unit they used? "Meg" yes, i know what they meant, but "Meg" is not a bloody unit of measurement.
30 21:29:00 Morasique er. did they write it out like that or say it like that?
30 21:29:00 Morasique people say "megs" all the time
30 21:30:00 auchter it was written out. several times.
30 21:31:00 auchter even in their tiny disclaimer text at the bottom of the ad they said "meg", but it was lowercase, whereas the others had capital M's
30 21:34:00 Morasique that's a bit odd
30 21:35:00 Morasique i've seen that before, but generally by people who don't know what they're talking about
30 21:35:00 auchter it made me sceptical, especially since they were advertising "20 Meg" service
30 21:36:00 Morasique ah. well, that's a speed
30 21:36:00 auchter oh, i do indeed know what they meant
30 21:36:00 auchter but is it so hard to expand "Meg", a non-existent unit, to "Megabit" >
30 21:36:00 Morasique no, i was trying to be sarcastic :)
30 22:02:00 octavious i just typed incompatibilities...what a strange looking word
30 22:17:00 auchter octavious: a lot of words are strange looking when you stare at them long enough. for some reason, i've always found `student' to be very weird
30 22:18:00 Morasique there are words that have always annoyed me. i misspelled grammar for years, i maintain that it's spelled grammer regardless of what these so-called "dictionaries" claim
30 22:19:00 Morasique answer is stupid too. they added that w because it's underused and they felt bad for it
30 22:19:00 auchter i'm fond of `judgment', especially making fun of people who spell it wrong
30 22:19:00 andy753421 hehe, about 5 years ago a typo'd a folder to 'programing' and have gotten aroud to changing it
30 22:19:00 crr going after English spelling is low-hanging fruit there, guys
30 22:20:00 auchter crr: no, going after Swedish spelling is low-hanging fruit
30 22:20:00 auchter oh, plaatduutsch, too.
30 22:37:00 auchter woah, when did idle.slashdot.org start to exist? i've never seen this before.
30 22:37:00 Morasique er. what is it?
30 22:37:00 auchter it's horrible.
30 22:38:00 Morasique yes, but i was looking for more like its purpose
30 22:38:00 auchter to emulate digg?
30 22:38:00 Morasique ah. well done then
30 22:39:00 auchter i originally got there by clicking on the tux tattoos post, hoping that it was a joke
31 01:27:00 andy753421 so plan9 seems to detect the sata drive, but I can't figure out how to get it to detect the IDE cdrom it's trying to boot from
31 01:39:00 auchter no luck with sd[CD][01]?
31 01:39:00 andy753421 nope, I think it's something weird because it only has one IDE channel
31 01:40:00 andy753421 gentoo 2008.0 doesn't find it either
31 01:40:00 andy753421 can you netboot plan9?
31 01:40:00 auchter heh, reminds me of the fun we had with the OS computers...
31 01:40:00 andy753421 haha, yea
31 01:41:00 auchter uh, i'm pretty sure you can, but don't ask me how
31 01:41:00 auchter in fact, you definitely can.
31 01:41:00 auchter likely the easier way would just be to install it on the hard drive in another machine
31 01:42:00 andy753421 if only i had another machine ;)
31 01:42:00 auchter ah, you're in the same situation as me then, haha
31 01:42:00 andy753421 specifically another machine with a sata controller
31 01:43:00 auchter you'd probably be better off asking in #plan9
31 01:43:00 auchter i need to get some sleep
31 01:44:00 auchter http://plan9.bell-labs.com/wiki/plan9/Installer_Errata/index.html
31 01:45:00 auchter that first bullet is probably useful...
31 01:45:00 auchter well, i'll be back in 5 hours, let me know how it goes
31 01:45:00 andy753421 alright
31 02:43:00 andy753421 apparently the ide drive is a marvel pata something or another and the gentoo disk doesn't have that driver included
31 03:43:00 andy753421 so i've decided not to install gentoo
31 03:44:00 andy753421 instead i'm going to fork it =D
31 03:44:00 andy753421 from my current server, and keep a log of what all machines that install has run on :)
31 10:40:00 Morasique i've downloaded java dozens of times and i'm still never sure which one is the right one, they're worse than vista
31 13:03:00 Morasique this is cool: http://codepad.org/
31 18:21:00 auchter Morasique: that is pretty cool... it's interesting how he handled the security issues
31 18:25:00 andy753421 i'm going to have to try breaking that when I have some free time
31 18:26:00 Morasique auchter: what did he do? i didn't really look into it
31 18:27:00 auchter http://codepad.org/about there's not a whole lot of detail, but periodically restored virtual machines, ignoring various syscalls, etc.
31 18:32:00 andy753421 that reminds me of my 372 project..
31 19:43:00 jboticsourc1 hi
31 19:45:00 jboticsourc1 ok team
31 19:45:00 jboticsourc1 rally time
31 19:45:00 tommost RT! RT! RT!
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 HOOOOOAAAAAA
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 andy, auchter, tom, and me
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 we need to get our money back
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 from wayne
31 19:46:00 tommost Andy's not here.
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 oh
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 ok
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 anyway
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 we need to get together
31 19:46:00 jboticsourc1 all and meet with wayne
31 19:48:00 tommost Physically?
31 19:48:00 jboticsourc1 yes
31 19:49:00 tommost Once school begins?
31 19:49:00 jboticsourc1 summer is good 2
31 19:49:00 tommost I don't think that's possible for Andy and Auchter.
31 19:49:00 jboticsourc1 but if when school starts is when we are all in TH
31 19:49:00 jboticsourc1 then we do it then
31 19:49:00 jboticsourc1 yea pretty much
31 19:50:00 jboticsourc1 the next time that we are all in town we need to come together
31 19:50:00 jboticsourc1 and fry this guy
31 19:50:00 tommost TUX!!! http://lug.phire.org/wiki/Main_Page
31 19:51:00 jboticsourc1 yay tux
31 19:52:00 auchter i demand glenda. preferably space glenda.
31 19:52:00 tommost Good point.
31 19:52:00 tommost I'm on it.
31 19:52:00 auchter tommost: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/img/spaceglenda300.jpg that should be adequate
31 19:53:00 tommost I'm way ahead of you.
| User | Lines | Words | Characters | Karma |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Morasique Morasiqu1 | 803 | 9962 | 56386 | 0 |
| auchter auchtemm | 948 | 9829 | 54909 | 0 |
| tommost tommost_aorist | 1103 | 8908 | 50554 | 0 |
| andy753421 | 738 | 8064 | 45234 | 0 |
| Mishtal Mishta1 | 140 | 1548 | 8790 | 0 |
| octavious octavious_drunk, octaviou3, octaviou1 | 153 | 1463 | 7892 | 0 |
| Blazeix | 81 | 816 | 4620 | 0 |
| povilusr_kaaba povilusr-laptop, povilusr_temp, povilusr_desktop, povilusr_laptop | 54 | 423 | 2031 | 0 |
| shadghost | 72 | 404 | 2090 | 0 |
| crr | 13 | 259 | 1437 | 0 |
| collinjc | 17 | 245 | 1267 | 0 |
| ZetaSyanthis | 22 | 244 | 1342 | 0 |
| rr72 rr73 | 40 | 237 | 1187 | 0 |
| kleinjt kleinj1 | 28 | 230 | 1336 | 0 |
| jboticsourc1 jboticsource | 33 | 204 | 972 | 0 |
| zz | 15 | 99 | 528 | 0 |
| Ayatollah | 2 | 31 | 157 | 0 |
| Zohan | 6 | 24 | 123 | 0 |
