31 20:33:00 Morasique auchter: way to crush their spirits by not being at the competition
31 20:33:00 Morasique jboticsource and ferrelaj were most distressed
31 20:35:00 ferrelaj Morasique: I wasn't distressed at all. ;-) I have little to do with the Robotics club, despite my frequent (failed) attempts to show up
01 00:40:00 Zeta_RHIT so did you guys see the new mini-itx board with the atom processor on it?
01 00:43:00 auchter Zeta_RHIT: nope, link?
01 00:45:00 Zeta_RHIT http://www.mini-box.com/Intel-D945GCLF-Mini-ITX-Motherboard
01 00:46:00 Zeta_RHIT via's going to be out of business very soon unless they pull something out of their ass
01 00:46:00 Zeta_RHIT because that's $84 with an atom proc
01 00:50:00 auchter the isaiah's supposed to be pretty decent too, though
01 00:52:00 auchter plus it'd be a win for via if hp uses isaiah in the mini-note upgrade
01 00:52:00 auchter which seems very logical, i mean, why else would they use the c7m now?
01 00:56:00 auchter at first i read your first sentence as "mini-atx"; i just now noticed the size of the board compared to the ram slot
01 01:09:00 Zeta_RHIT ah, okay
01 01:09:00 Zeta_RHIT dell's using the atom in their new eee pc competitor, I think
01 01:22:00 Zeta_RHIT that particular atom chip's been demo'd running vista + ut2k4 without lag, I think
01 01:23:00 Zeta_RHIT But I'm waiting on benchmarks :)
01 01:23:00 Zeta_RHIT still, 84 for a mini-itx is the lowest I've ever seen
01 02:32:00 Morasique typing "rm *" while in my home directory: not the smartest move i've ever made
01 12:03:00 auchter Morasique: having your home under version control is rather nice: svn update ~
01 12:03:00 Morasique well, fortunately I had a rather large file that started with a number, so that slowed down rm for a couple seconds while i realized what i did and slammed ctrl+c many times
01 12:03:00 Morasique and i have a nightly backup, but still, not a great move
01 12:04:00 Morasique i should version control my home directory, that's a good idea
01 12:04:00 Morasique i tried putting my whole root partition under version control on windows once. it didn't go well
01 12:05:00 auchter ...why?
01 12:18:00 Morasique i assume you mean why didn't it go well. i don't exactly remember, but subversion gave me some sort of error partway through trying to do the initial commit, so I had a bazillion .svn folders scattered everywhere
01 12:25:00 auchter actually i was thinking more along the lines of "why would you do such a thing?"
01 12:32:00 Morasique ah. same reason as versioning your home folder, backup purposes
01 12:32:00 Morasique windows isn't as good at keeping configuration stuff in one place, just backing up the documents and settings folder won't really work
01 12:37:00 auchter ah, i suppose i forgot about that
01 12:42:00 auchter i had forgotten how truly horrible windows is until i had to use it at work on tuesday
01 12:43:00 auchter that lasted a total of one day, then i got fed up and installed linux
01 13:10:00 Morasique i'm having a similar experience, except they won't let me install linux :'(
01 13:10:00 Morasique i try to do stuff in a terminal and want to stab myself in the face
01 13:13:00 auchter a surprising amount of people use linux where i work
01 13:14:00 auchter they even set up a terminal server to rdesktop into to use lotus notes
01 13:15:00 Morasique i think my company is a bunch of linux users in denial. everyone uses cygwin for stuff, and a bunch of the scripts everyone needs are written for linux and then ported over to windows, it's really dumb
01 13:27:00 Zeta_RHIT auchter, where you working?
01 13:27:00 Zeta_RHIT ooc
01 13:28:00 Zeta_RHIT rockwell's using lotus notes 6.something, which is just sad :/
01 13:28:00 Zeta_RHIT I think they're up to 8 at least
01 13:28:00 Zeta_RHIT not to mention the whole "it's lotus notes in the first place" thing
01 13:28:00 auchter lexmark, i forget which version of notes they use
01 13:28:00 Morasique apparently we're the only place that doesn't use lotus notes :)
01 13:29:00 Zeta_RHIT I've been trying for 4 days to get admin priv. on my own computer so I can install software to do my damned job
01 13:29:00 Zeta_RHIT Swapping to a linux box soon, I hope
01 13:30:00 Zeta_RHIT Windows, and every single diagnostic tool they have claims I'm an admin, and at the same time, I can't even control-shift-escape
01 13:31:00 Morasique there are group policies to prevent stuff like that in windows
01 13:31:00 Morasique if you're logged in as admin you could disable them though, so that doesn't make much sense
01 13:47:00 Zeta_RHIT yeah, suffice to say 4 IT guys have been in my office and can't figure it ouy
01 13:47:00 Zeta_RHIT *out
01 13:47:00 Morasique nice
01 13:47:00 Zeta_RHIT the sooner I get a linux box the better, since the dev tools exist for that anyways
01 13:48:00 Morasique ah. we're using visual studio, so yeah :'(
01 13:48:00 Zeta_RHIT They have me playing with a softcore processor on the altera fpgas... quite nifty
01 13:49:00 Zeta_RHIT you program the nios II (that processor) in C, but it has a autogenerated HAL
01 13:49:00 Zeta_RHIT to write to the lcd display you fopen("/dev/lcd_display") :)
01 13:50:00 Zeta_RHIT anyways, it also has something called the c2h compiler
01 13:51:00 Zeta_RHIT you can select functions or parts of functions that'd run on the nios II normally and convert them to gates automatically... looks like a single assembly instruction to the chip after that
01 21:03:00 tommost auchter: a) I'm not sure, but doubtless you are to blame. b) That's your fault too.
01 21:09:00 tommost auchter: Also, kleinjt is making devious plans for next year that you should discuss with him some time.
01 21:48:00 auchter tommost: ah, ok, i'll talk to him whenever he gets on
01 21:48:00 auchter i've got some plans as well...
01 21:49:00 auchter kleinjt_: so what are these devious plans i heard about?
01 21:49:00 tommost jboticsource has even more devious plans.
01 21:49:00 kleinjt_ awesome stackable boards
01 21:50:00 kleinjt_ a much better frying resistant motor controller
01 21:50:00 auchter stackable?
01 21:50:00 auchter (agree on the second point...)
01 21:50:00 auchter as in pc/104 stackable?
01 21:50:00 kleinjt_ not quite that intense
01 21:51:00 kleinjt_ but, it would be cool to say that
01 21:51:00 auchter so, in what way would this be used?
01 21:53:00 kleinjt_ well, say have the bottom board in the stack provide a regulated 3.3v and 5v for the above stacks, along with fuses/circuit breakers
01 21:53:00 kleinjt_ above stacks would not have to worry about power regulation and filtering as much, and that would make things easier
01 21:53:00 kleinjt_ also, no groups used amp connectors, so I plan to ditch them next year
01 21:53:00 kleinjt_ powerpoles were popular though
01 21:54:00 auchter yeah, that's fine
01 21:54:00 auchter i do awfully like powerpoles
01 21:54:00 auchter one thing i'd like to do is make some power distribution boards
01 21:54:00 auchter regs and fuses for individual runs of 5V, 12V, etc.
01 21:54:00 kleinjt_ I'd like to redo parts of the motor controller boards
01 21:54:00 auchter with decent monitoring
01 21:54:00 kleinjt_ yeah
01 21:54:00 auchter that's something i'd like to concentrate on next year in particular
01 21:55:00 kleinjt_ I'm going to make a tach sensors as a decent way of getting to know AVR assembly
01 21:55:00 auchter one thing i've been looking into is using a CAN bus
01 21:55:00 kleinjt_ some ATmegas use CAN
01 21:55:00 auchter i should have some chips coming from microchip in the next two weeks
01 21:55:00 auchter yeah, i looked at some of the m
01 21:55:00 auchter microchip has a SPI->CAN chip, which is pretty cool
01 21:55:00 auchter as well as some other cool chips, let me find them
01 21:55:00 kleinjt_ I'll look into CAN this summer
01 21:56:00 auchter i'm going to put together an example bus to play around with soon
01 21:56:00 auchter http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1335&dDocName=en010402
01 21:56:00 auchter that chip is just plain awesome
01 22:01:00 tommost We're leaving the coffee shop, I guess.
01 22:01:00 tommost This discussion will have to continue later.
01 22:02:00 auchter what coffee shop was this?
01 22:03:00 jboticsource caribu
01 22:11:00 auchter jboticsource: ah, in royal oak?
01 22:12:00 auchter i mean rochester, actually
01 22:18:00 Morasique gnome needs a way to detect when i've noticed an alert and dismiss it automatically. some sort of eye-tracking mechanism
01 22:29:00 auchter Morasique: i'm pretty sure dwm does that
01 22:29:00 Morasique naturally
01 22:29:00 Morasique DAMN IT FIREFOX
01 22:29:00 Morasique i glanced away for 3 seconds
01 22:55:00 rr72 graduated today
02 16:44:00 auchter http://9fans.net/archive/2008/06/21
02 16:44:00 auchter http://9fans.net/archive/2008/06/24
02 17:02:00 auchter http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=472638&cid=22616008
02 17:52:00 Morasique http://goosh.org/
02 17:52:00 Morasique now somebody just needs to integrate that into my real shell
02 18:24:00 auchter now that i finally have time to program in limbo again, i'm reminded of why i liked it so much
02 18:27:00 auchter http://rafb.net/p/vWtSMp49.html
02 18:28:00 auchter multi-threaded sieve of eratosthenes, with no pain involved
02 18:28:00 auchter (idea was from russ cox's page on CSP threads)
02 18:28:00 Morasique somebody should do that in erlang, it would probably be gorgeous
02 18:29:00 auchter limbo is gorgeous, it lets me do things like "int hd tl args"
02 18:29:00 Morasique what does that do?
02 18:29:00 auchter takes the head of the tail of the list of strings "args" and casts it to an int
02 18:30:00 Morasique ah. i think that's the same as erlang syntax except there's no casting in erlang
02 18:30:00 auchter ah, i see
02 18:30:00 auchter i just think the idea of communicating through channels like that is pretty cool
02 18:31:00 auchter seeing as how i was doing multi-threaded java code today... not a fun experience
02 18:31:00 Morasique :D
02 18:32:00 auchter the good thing about java is that eclipse essentially programs for me
02 18:50:00 andy753421 I HATE GOOGLE
02 18:50:00 andy753421 why do they have to make links that aren't really links?
02 18:51:00 andy753421 we need some sort of a standard for things that you can click on but don't take you to a new page
02 19:00:00 Morasique well suck, i tried to write a cool erlang thread-using thing and ended up not using threads at all
02 19:34:00 auchter Morasique: limbo > erlang (i say this barely knowing one and not knowing the other at all)
02 19:35:00 auchter but hey, at least my program was thraded
02 19:35:00 Morasique well, they seem really similar, i think the problem was me not understanding how to do it. i don't see how you can thread the sieve, you need one pass to finish before the next can start
02 19:35:00 Morasique or at least you need one pass to find the beginning of the new list before the next can start
02 19:35:00 Morasique i don't understand enough limbo to read your code
02 19:36:00 Morasique i'm cool with this: http://rafb.net/p/xyBQrH68.html
02 19:36:00 auchter http://swtch.com/~rsc/thread/
02 19:36:00 auchter very nice... i might have to look into erlang
02 19:36:00 auchter though realistically, i'll never use it
02 19:36:00 Morasique erlang and haskell have made me hate all non-pattern-matching languages, they make me ill
02 19:37:00 Morasique oh, this is cool. i should try this
02 19:37:00 auchter that's the page i based my limbo code off of
02 19:49:00 auchter i think this apartment is going to permanently smell like fish
02 20:03:00 Morasique for comparison: http://rafb.net/p/04R1Ny72.html
02 20:14:00 auchter Morasique: yeah, i don't really understand that...
02 20:14:00 auchter that's why i like limbo, it's not too far of a departure from C
02 20:15:00 Morasique it's fairly readable i think, one or two erlang-isms. A ! B means send message B to thread A, that's probably the only confusing part
02 20:16:00 auchter ah, ok
02 20:21:00 rr72 hate multithreaded java
02 20:21:00 Morasique multithreaded java borders on an oxymoron. at least there are thread safe standard libraries for most stuff now, there used to be none
02 20:29:00 auchter having to do the synchronized, wait(), notify(), &c. bothers me a bit
02 20:29:00 auchter it's such a verbose language
02 20:30:00 Morasique yeah, i wish languages used more symbols, but sadly nobody else wishes that :)
02 20:30:00 Morasique things like erlang's ! instead of send, i like that
02 20:31:00 auchter something.somethingElse.getYetSomethingElse().notifyAll() is so much better
02 20:33:00 Morasique heck yes. java desperately needs a with() block, i forget what language had that, but you could do with(something.somethingElse.getYetSomethingElse()) { .notifyAll(); }, for when you have multiple calls with the same long prefix in a row, which happens all the time in java
02 20:34:00 auchter yeah... you would not believe the casts that i was doing today
02 20:34:00 auchter it was awful and made me cry
02 20:34:00 Morasique c++ casts make me cry, i'm learning c++ for my summer job, wtf is this dynamic_cast<> nonsense
02 20:35:00 auchter s/dynamic_cast<>/c++/
02 20:35:00 auchter it such a complex language, i have no desire to learn it
02 20:35:00 auchter s/t/t's/
02 20:36:00 Morasique i need to know c++ and perl for my job, it's like they looked at my resume and thought "ok, what languages does this guy not know and in fact probably hate"
02 20:37:00 auchter a lot of people seem to use perl
02 20:38:00 auchter the last time i did anything large in perl was in 10th grade for a class project... since then i've just used it for quick scripts that i'll use once or twice
02 21:44:00 auchter using rose-hulman for my gentoo mirror: 15KB/s
02 21:45:00 auchter using IU as my gentoo mirror: 891KB/s
02 21:45:00 auchter i thought they had the bandwidth situation under control
02 21:47:00 andy753421 I noticed that earlier today as well
02 21:47:00 andy753421 the bandwidth graph doesn't seem to be to pegged, so I guess it's just something else
02 21:48:00 auchter i'm guessing it's VMWare's poor hardware
02 21:51:00 Morasique i'm guessing it's gentoo
02 21:55:00 auchter Morasique: you should give gentoo a try this summer
02 21:55:00 auchter i resisted for the longest time, finally i gave in and realized how much better it is
02 21:55:00 Morasique i should. i'm going to put linux on my desktop at some point, i grow tired of vista's need to restart itself every couple days, so i may try gentoo on there
02 21:59:00 andy753421 hm.. I need to learn perl and lisp this summer
02 22:00:00 andy753421 my roommate who's not even a CS is learning perl, so I'd feel left out if I didn't learn it too..
02 22:01:00 Morasique it's not left out, it's the opposite of left out. it's like he's caught a disease and you're left out in that you haven't caught it too
02 22:02:00 andy753421 heh, i was surprised, he was actually told to learn perl and then use it
02 22:02:00 andy753421 i think that's the first time i've ever heard of anyone being /asked/ to write code in perl
02 22:02:00 auchter theres much of perl that's mystical to me, as i've just never bothered learning it
02 22:02:00 auchter and the man pages are sometimes not helpful, for example, the bless function: "This function tells the thingy referenced by REF that it is now an object in the CLASSNAME package."
02 22:02:00 Morasique bless is possibly the ultimate perl hack
02 22:09:00 auchter also, the fact that this code is valid is hilarious: http://rafb.net/p/SF816a65.html
02 22:10:00 Morasique :D
02 22:10:00 auchter especially how much it trips up vim's syntax highlighting http://freya.phire.org/tmp/2008-06-03-020958_1920x1200_scrot.png
02 22:11:00 Morasique that is much better than Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo
02 22:11:00 auchter i was tempted to put that as a comment, actually
03 17:39:00 Morasique c++ was invented by satan. i spent like three hours debugging something this morning because it decided it wanted to free some of my memory automatically. memory i was not through with
03 17:39:00 tommost Sounds fun.
03 17:39:00 Morasique die
03 17:39:00 tommost I wonder how the garbage collector in the next version is going to work.
03 17:40:00 tommost s/Sounds fun./Sounds fun.~/
03 17:41:00 Morasique i got to look smart at work, i finished 38 hours worth of tasks on the project schedule. overestimation ftw
03 17:43:00 tommost Where are you working?
03 17:44:00 Morasique arxan
03 17:44:00 Morasique http://www.arxan.com
03 17:44:00 tommost Oh, yeah.
03 17:45:00 tommost So professional obfuscation or something actually secure?
03 17:46:00 Morasique i'm not working on guardit (the program you're probably talking about) so i don't know the details, but it seems pretty impressive from all the documentation i read
03 17:46:00 auchter i thought c++ didn't have built in garbage collection
03 17:46:00 tommost auchter: They're adding it in the next version, apparently.
03 17:47:00 tommost Because it's already such a small language.
03 17:47:00 auchter i see, but it's hardly c++'s fault that Morasique was having problems
03 17:47:00 auchter it's whatever library he's using
03 17:47:00 Morasique auchter: it doesn't, but it frees stack-allocated memory when a function block ends, and it was freeing something i would never have expected it to
03 17:47:00 auchter ah, ok then
03 17:47:00 auchter i'm pretty ignorant when it comes to c++. i plan to stay that way
03 17:48:00 Morasique i had a pointer to SomeObject*, and at one point in the function i did SomeObject foo=*fooPtr, and it turns out when the function block ends it sees foo sitting there and assumes it's been allocated on the stack as part of the function, so it frees it
03 17:48:00 Morasique even though i still have the pointer in fooPtr
03 17:48:00 Morasique which is now invalid
03 17:48:00 tommost That sounds retarded.
03 17:48:00 Morasique it took me a stunning amount of time to figure this out, the whole time thinking "it's cool that c++ can tell the difference, i wonder how it does that". it's not cool. not cool at all
03 17:48:00 tommost How did you work around it?
03 17:49:00 Morasique i just didn't assign foo, i used fooPtr directly
03 17:49:00 Morasique replaced foo.whatever with fooPtr->whatever in the function
03 17:49:00 Morasique i think the accepted way around it is to set foo to something like NULL before the function ends, 'cause i've seen code that does that and never understood why
03 17:50:00 tommost That is horrible.
03 17:50:00 Morasique on the other hand, visual studio has a fantastic debugger, so points to microsoft for that, it pretty much lets you do anything
03 17:51:00 auchter the C standard library has an excellent debugging function
03 17:51:00 tommost printf.
03 17:51:00 auchter fprintf is my friend
03 17:52:00 Morasique yeah, that's usually what i do, and i had plenty of those scattered everywhere, but the debugger is what finally let me step through and figure out at what point my pointer was no longer working, which turned out to be the closing brace of the function
03 17:52:00 auchter "The most effective debugging tool is still careful thought, coupled with judiciously placed print statements." -- Kernighan
03 17:52:00 tommost I discovered the other day that Python has a debugger in the standard library... this doesn't really surprise me, but I was surprised that I didn't know about it.
03 17:52:00 Morasique :) nice. i was of the impression that "real" developers use debuggers instead of print statements, but i've never really liked debuggers much
03 17:52:00 tommost There are also three separate profiling modules. LOL.
03 17:52:00 auchter ok, so he did say that in 1979, but still...
03 17:53:00 auchter on another, continual, note: java pains me
03 17:54:00 tommost :)
03 17:54:00 tommost I can't believe that you actually took a job involving Java.
03 17:54:00 Morasique auchter is using java and i'm using c++ something is so very wrong here
03 17:54:00 tommost collinjc: What is our project written in?
03 17:55:00 Morasique i know somebody using scheme for their summer job, i'm quite jealous
03 17:57:00 auchter luckily no one has looked at my code yet (nor will they, as apparently i've been doing something tangential to what i'm supposed to be doing), as you would think that "public" "static" and "void" are my favorite words
03 17:58:00 tommost :D
03 17:58:00 Morasique translation: you're writing code with poor encapsulation, bad OO design but relying entirely on side effects ;)
03 17:58:00 auchter yeah, who needs functional programming?
03 17:59:00 auchter ok, so actually void is rarely used compared to the other two, but i think you get my point
03 18:00:00 collinjc tommost: python, so you will be right at home
03 18:00:00 tommost claps
03 18:00:00 tommost In somewhat related news, Firebug was just updated to work in Firefox 3, so now I can do web development again.
03 18:02:00 auchter someone should design a processor that interprets XML
03 18:02:00 auchter that way it will never be out of date and be very easy to program
03 18:02:00 tommost Because that's what it would take to make XML fast?
03 18:02:00 auchter no, because that's the kind of cognative dissonance i felt like spewing in here before i left
03 18:03:00 tommost auchter: Wait--don't go!
03 18:03:00 auchter s/cognative/cognitive/
03 18:03:00 auchter hm?
03 18:03:00 tommost CAM is not good.
03 18:03:00 auchter CAM?
03 18:04:00 auchter what are you on about?
03 18:04:00 tommost That automotive communication protocol that you wanted to inflict on our robot this year.
03 18:04:00 auchter Controller Area Network, CAN
03 18:05:00 tommost Ah, yes, that.
03 18:05:00 auchter and yes, it is good, and i challenge you to prove me wrong
03 18:05:00 tommost It is patented.
03 18:05:00 auchter so is I2C, you'll get over it
03 18:05:00 tommost Which undermines the "open source" selling point of our robot.
03 18:05:00 auchter CANopen
03 18:05:00 auchter and i'm leaving to go eat korean, hardly anything you say will make me stay here instead
03 18:05:00 tommost :(
03 18:06:00 tommost I can't compete with Korean.
03 18:06:00 auchter also, CAN support is in the kernel
03 18:07:00 tommost It looks like a neat protocol (especially the stuff that makes collisions nonexistent) but it seems awfully complex for our needs.
03 18:08:00 auchter so find a better one, i'm open to other options as i haven't invested much time into it
03 18:08:00 tommost RS232. I2C.
03 18:09:00 auchter I2C sucks over the distances we're running it (CAN is differential, I2C isn't and has restrictions on bus capacitance)
03 18:09:00 auchter RS232 uses batshit insane levels, so no
03 18:09:00 auchter plus, it's not a bus
03 18:09:00 tommost I'm looking at the CANopen WIkipedia page and seeing mention of the OSI model and several internal protocols.
03 18:10:00 auchter plus, there's no good hardware support for RS232
03 18:10:00 tommost Aside from, you know, the computer.
03 18:10:00 auchter this = awesome: http://www.microchip.com/ParamChartSearch/chart.aspx?branchID=11031&mid=10&lang=en&pageId=79
03 18:10:00 auchter find stuff like that for another bus and i'm sold
03 18:10:00 auchter i'm out for now
03 18:11:00 tommost Later.
03 18:55:00 auchter strange, no complaints while i was gone
03 19:02:00 tommost auchter: What exactly are you planning to do with whatever bus technology is selected?
03 19:05:00 tommost The way that you are so insistent on using a bus makes me think that you may be planning much more that I'm envisioning.
03 19:07:00 tommost auchter: And by the way, I noticed that the Plan9 machine's Ethernet cable was disconnected so I reconnected it.
03 19:07:00 auchter each part on the robot should be at least semi-intelligent
03 19:07:00 auchter tommost: thanks, i was trying to get on the other day
03 19:07:00 auchter example, one thing i'm working on right now is a PoE board
03 19:07:00 tommost Ooooo...
03 19:08:00 auchter it should be connected to the CAN bus, and we should be able to query, for example, input voltage (nominally 12V), output voltage (nominally 48V) and current draw
03 19:08:00 auchter this is trivial to do with one of those $2 chips on that link i sent you
03 19:09:00 tommost Okay. Is this information intended purely for the computer or will you be doing something else with it?
03 19:10:00 auchter the computer will likely be most interested in the data. i believe those chips can also send out a message when an event occurs (voltage too high and such)
03 19:10:00 andy753421 can I make the suggestions that we make the robot work as it is now before trying to do anything fancy?
03 19:10:00 tommost I agree with Andy.
03 19:11:00 auchter i agree as well, and the nice thing is that this adds maybe 6 parts to the PoE board
03 19:11:00 auchter just as an example, and it doesn't need to be used off the bat
03 19:11:00 andy753421 PoE board, that sounds like something new ;)
03 19:11:00 tommost On the more complex side of things, though, it would be nice if the interface were more of a broadcast sort than a "query and reply" sort. It would fit better with the event system architecture we have now.
03 19:12:00 auchter well, we're not using a 12Vdc->120VAC->12Vdc->48Vdc setup again
03 19:12:00 auchter tommost: yeah, that's no problem; that's actually how most CAN devices work from what i've read
03 19:12:00 tommost Otherwise we'd have to run a thread to continually query the system to see if anything has changed and dispatch an event if it has.
03 19:12:00 tommost Okay.
03 19:12:00 andy753421 can we make the motor controllers work before trying to change the power system (which, technically, already works?)
03 19:13:00 tommost According to people I talked to at the competition lots of teams use hacks like the inverter.
03 19:13:00 tommost It is not to be ashamed of.
03 19:13:00 auchter PoE is power over ethernet, it's something different from the power system
03 19:13:00 tommost It's the same to us.
03 19:14:00 auchter ok then
03 19:14:00 tommost It involves two wires of different colors that must be plugged in for anything to work. ;)
03 19:14:00 auchter it sounds like kleinjt had something in mind for the motor controllers
03 19:14:00 andy753421 from what I understand, we don't /need/ PoE to make the robot move around, so we should prioritize the things that we do need (like motor controllers)
03 19:14:00 tommost Yeah: polarized connectors.
03 19:14:00 auchter oh, so is that how he fried the HIP4081?
03 19:14:00 tommost Apparently not having them caused something like half of the problems he had.
03 19:14:00 auchter well, that problem's easily solved
03 19:15:00 tommost The rest are probably attributable to not having gotten enough sleep.
03 19:15:00 auchter in fact, i was about to until he told me to not worry about it
03 19:15:00 auchter rotate one of the anderson connectors 90 degrees, tada! polarized
03 19:15:00 tommost And apparently some were caused by schematics that weren't current or something.
03 19:15:00 auchter ah, i see
03 19:16:00 tommost Someone soldered the motor controller boards such that the motor and battery connectors are compatible.
03 19:16:00 tommost This annoys me.
03 19:16:00 auchter oh yeah, that was me
03 19:16:00 Morasique compatible is bad?
03 19:16:00 auchter like i said, i was about to change that
03 19:16:00 tommost That needs to be fixed.
03 19:16:00 auchter it's easy to change
03 19:16:00 tommost Good.
03 19:17:00 auchter Morasique: one is an input, the other is an output
03 19:17:00 auchter they don't like being switched around, either
03 19:17:00 Morasique i don't know what compatible means, but i suspect not the definition i think
03 19:17:00 Morasique there is no such thing as negative compatibility in my mind
03 19:17:00 tommost Morasique: One connects to a huge gel cell capable of melting stuff.
03 19:17:00 Morasique _awesome_
03 19:17:00 tommost As in, anything it's plugged into backwards.
03 19:17:00 Morasique i should join robotics
03 19:17:00 tommost Not awesome.
03 19:18:00 tommost You should.
03 19:18:00 andy753421 Morasique: I think they're /physically/ compatible, but not electronically
03 19:18:00 auchter andy753421: that's a better definition
03 19:18:00 Morasique ah
03 19:18:00 tommost BTW, I would like to do either a sumo or a combat robotics competition (small weight classes) this year.
03 19:19:00 andy753421 Jay also want's to make everything out of LEGOs
03 19:19:00 tommost Yeah.
03 19:19:00 tommost I'm not opposed.
03 19:19:00 andy753421 (no surprise there..)
03 19:19:00 tommost I think that we should get the mechanically boring chassis made out of Legos so the mechanical team can go make combat robots. :)
03 19:20:00 auchter so, right, things for electronics to work on this summer:
03 19:20:00 auchter 1. motor controllers that don't completely fail at life
03 19:20:00 andy753421 I am in that I would like to get experience from this club, and I don't think legos are standard industry practice
03 19:20:00 auchter 2. power distribution boards
03 19:20:00 auchter uh, add to the list
03 19:20:00 auchter and should project.rhitrobotics.org be down?
03 19:21:00 tommost Power distribution boards? What's wrong with the bolts with spade terminals on them that we used this year?~
03 19:21:00 tommost auchter: Something's wrong with the domain name.
03 19:21:00 tommost The server works fine.
03 19:21:00 auchter ah, ok
03 19:21:00 auchter ip?
03 19:21:00 tommost It's not down for me, actually.
03 19:22:00 tommost Maybe because I'm on campus?
03 19:22:00 andy753421 137.112.99.21 robotics-2.student.rose-hulman.edu r2 project.rhitrobotics.org
03 19:22:00 andy753421 no, my mom used to check rhitrobotics.org and she never had any problems with it
03 19:23:00 auchter so, even with that line in my hosts it still doesn't work
03 19:23:00 tommost Well, that's one thing on my TODO list this summer: make that website suck less.
03 19:24:00 tommost Visit https://www.rhitrobotics.org/mw/Main_Page and be confused. ;)
03 19:24:00 auchter nothing works
03 19:25:00 andy753421 auchter: you'll probably want to add (www.)?rhitrobotics.org to the list of aliases
03 19:26:00 auchter any explanation as to why that was necessary to access project.rhitrobotics.org?
03 19:26:00 auchter because it worked.
03 19:27:00 andy753421 I don't know, i didn't have to add that (I blame firefox, i think it caches DNS querys)
03 19:27:00 tommost It does, for about 30 seconds, I think.
03 19:55:00 auchter getting encrypted email makes my day
03 19:55:00 tommost You actually got it?
03 19:55:00 auchter surprised?
03 19:55:00 tommost I thought that it failed because the attachment was too large.
03 19:55:00 tommost I was just uploading it to the robotics server so you could get at it.
03 19:56:00 auchter awesome, now my day is even better. thanks Morasique
03 19:56:00 tommost In the process I found out that scp has a decent progress indicator, which made my day.
03 19:56:00 auchter of course it does
03 19:56:00 tommost Also, zsh's completion is really annoying if you haven't set up public key authentication.
03 19:57:00 auchter haha, that would be painful
03 20:00:00 andy753421 zsh completion is also painful if you're on a crappy off campus wireless connection
03 20:01:00 auchter LDAP lookup in thunderbird is painful if you're off campus
03 20:01:00 Morasique auchter: it doesn't even work for me, i disabled it so it would stop freezing everytime i type an address
03 20:01:00 auchter that's what i meant by painful
03 20:17:00 andy753421 add an dc-1.rose-hulman.edu as an alias to localhost, the do `sudo ssh -f -L 389:dc-1.rose-hulman.edu:389 spenceal@addiator.rose-hulman.edu sleep $((60*60*24))'
03 20:17:00 andy753421 well, not spenceal, but you get the idea
03 20:34:00 tommost auchter: Just curious; what is the physical interface for CAN for the computer?
03 20:38:00 auchter tommost: i haven't looked into them yet
03 20:41:00 andy753421 so, anyone interested in weather prediction and want to write some software?
03 20:42:00 tommost andy753421: That would be you.
03 20:42:00 auchter andy753421: weather prediction?
03 20:44:00 andy753421 yea, i'm working on weather prediction this summer, there's this piece of software (http://www.wdssii.org/) that is commonly used for integrating different weather data, but it's not open source and i hear it sucks to program for
03 20:44:00 andy753421 so I was thinking about writing something similar under the GPL
03 20:45:00 andy753421 all the free weather programs that I've found for linux tend to be limited to showing temperatures and cute pictures of clouds for each day
03 20:48:00 auchter that would be pretty cool
03 20:48:00 andy753421 (as a side note, my roommate just compared perl and fortran)
03 20:49:00 auchter honestly i've always been under the impression that weather predictions are pseudo-randomly generated based on certain criteria
03 20:49:00 auchter andy753421: this requires elaboration, as it may be hilarious
03 20:49:00 andy753421 he was told to learn perl, and i guess all he's used before
03 20:50:00 andy753421 so my other roommate (who had used fortran) asked if they were alike, and he said they're simmilar
03 20:50:00 auchter it's actually rather surprising how much fortran is still used
03 20:50:00 andy753421 apparently fortran is big for science majors
03 20:50:00 auchter i think the scheduling at rose is done in fortran
03 20:51:00 andy753421 scheduling?
03 20:51:00 auchter rooms for exams, etc
03 20:52:00 andy753421 ah, i figured that would have all been done by banner
03 20:52:00 auchter i came across the code when i was browsing through /afs one day, i can't seem to find it now
03 20:52:00 andy753421 ok, anyway, back to weather :)
03 20:53:00 andy753421 it is a bit of a pseudo science, a lot of that is because there's really not that good of data for predictions
03 20:59:00 auchter http://www.rose-hulman.edu/lakecam/
03 21:00:00 auchter never knew about that...
03 21:00:00 Morasique i think that's the first one i ever found. you'd think with all these cams they could manage to keep the subway cam up for more than 20 minutes
03 21:01:00 Morasique although admittedly the subway cam is also the only one that gets hits
03 21:02:00 auchter chapelcam, habitatcam, hatfieldcam, lakecam, newnewrescam, newrescam
03 21:03:00 Morasique oh, wow. i didn't know about most of those
03 21:03:00 Morasique clockcam isn't on the list
03 21:03:00 auchter yeah, it's not at the root of their file server
03 21:04:00 auchter that's the only one i use, i've got it as an alias
03 21:04:00 auchter it's one of the first things i do once i get to class
03 21:04:00 Morasique :D why?
03 21:04:00 auchter it's often more interesting than the lecture
03 21:04:00 Morasique nice
03 21:07:00 auchter kleinjt: there's stuff on the wiki
03 21:09:00 tommost auchter: What's the maximum current draw of the motors?
03 21:10:00 auchter 12/whatever their resistance
03 21:10:00 tommost Thank you.
03 21:10:00 auchter it's high.
03 21:10:00 auchter regardless, i'll be back in a bit
03 21:10:00 tommost According to the datasheet on the wiki it's 114 Amps.
03 21:11:00 tommost At least, I think that's what it says.
03 21:43:00 auchter tommost: that sounds about right
03 21:44:00 tommost Why do we have such ridiculous motors?
03 21:45:00 auchter that's not ridiculous at all, its just that at stall motors draw quite a bit of current
03 21:45:00 tommost Our robot needs to be smaller.
03 21:45:00 auchter during high school the robotics team i was on used four of those motors for drivetrain
03 21:45:00 tommost Do we really need the motor controllers to be able to handle them at stall? Why not just fuse them?
03 21:46:00 auchter no, the motor controllers do not need to handle them at stall, and they are (should) be protected by 40A breakers
03 21:46:00 tommost Oh, okay.
03 21:46:00 tommost I was under the impression that they did.
03 21:46:00 tommost And it made no sense to me.
03 21:47:00 auchter so, the motors are actually at stall for a very short amount of time when the robot is just starting to move
03 21:47:00 auchter they draw a ton of current, but it's for a very short time
03 21:47:00 tommost Which is why we want slow-acting fuses?
03 21:48:00 auchter no, no fuses, we want circuit breakers
03 21:48:00 auchter but for the time at which they are at stall, no breaker will trip
03 21:48:00 tommost Well, yes.
03 21:49:00 tommost If you can get the boards made and components ordered this summer, Brian or I can put together some new boards.
03 21:50:00 auchter kleinjt and i still need to decide exactly what we need to do yet
03 21:50:00 tommost I humbly request a moving robot within two weeks.
03 21:51:00 auchter i humbly request that we be given time to evaluate our options and decide the best way to go about it
03 21:51:00 tommost Request imperiously sniffed at, but not shot down.
03 21:55:00 auchter also, speaking of brian, why is he not in here?
03 21:56:00 auchter tell him to look at the electronics wiki as well
03 21:56:00 tommost He's watching TV.
03 21:56:00 auchter i didn't mean at this very instant, i meant in general
03 21:57:00 tommost I have relayed your instructions.
03 21:57:00 auchter i sent a SYN but have yet to receive an ACK from the intended recipeient
03 21:58:00 tommost What, specifically, has changed?
03 21:59:00 auchter power distribution has some comments under it, motor controller has an empty section which should detail what we need to do
03 21:59:00 auchter basically, feedback, other ideas, etc.
03 22:03:00 tommost Where is this power distribution page?
03 22:03:00 auchter on the wiki somewhere, likely not linked to by any other page
03 22:03:00 tommost I tried searching for it.
03 22:04:00 Morasique who is Briane on the wiki?
03 22:04:00 auchter Morasique: brian embry, i believe
03 22:07:00 Morasique :D wow. for each graduating class they post the average and highest starting wage, just so you can see how you stack up
03 22:07:00 auchter where's this?
03 22:07:00 Morasique http://www.rose-hulman.edu/news/articles/2008commencementfinal.htm
03 22:08:00 Morasique i'm told career services has a list of it all, but i don't know if it's online
03 22:08:00 auchter it's really meaningless, though
03 22:09:00 andy753421 gradschool++
03 22:09:00 Morasique because happiness is the only real goal?
03 22:09:00 auchter it depends on geography too much
03 22:09:00 Morasique or that
03 22:09:00 auchter andy753421: yup, looks like that for me...
03 22:09:00 Morasique i was getting worried for a minute
03 22:09:00 tommost Indeed.
03 22:09:00 Morasique well now i suck, everyone stop talking
03 22:10:00 auchter heh, two years ago i never considered grad school, i wanted to get done with college
03 22:10:00 auchter however, i've apparently changed my mind
03 22:10:00 andy753421 yea, apparently the work force sucks more
03 22:10:00 Morasique everyone told me graduate school was a terrible idea until i decided not to go, and then they all changed their minds :)
03 22:10:00 Morasique it was like some clever group trick
03 22:11:00 andy753421 if there's anything I'm learning from this REU it's that academics can get off an terribly unrelated tangents and nobody seems to bind that noting productive is happening
03 22:11:00 andy753421 *mind
03 22:11:00 andy753421 *nothing
03 22:12:00 Morasique gasps at andy753421's non-sed syntax and hides from auchter's rebukes
03 22:12:00 Morasique and yes, i've found a similar thing to be true in the workforce, except that last part about not minding
03 22:12:00 auchter andy753421: i like tangents...
03 22:12:00 andy753421 i'm optimizing for the available hardware (being the human brain)
03 22:13:00 tommost So would anyone here be interested in building small (3 or 12 lb.) combat robots for a competition this coming year?
03 22:14:00 andy753421 just remote controlled, no software right?
03 22:14:00 tommost I'd be open to either option.
03 22:14:00 tommost I was thinking that remote control would allow more people to participate, though.
03 22:14:00 andy753421 putting software on it means we need to put expensive sensors on it, which seems like a bad idea
03 22:14:00 tommost Yeah.
03 22:15:00 tommost Well, in the 3 lb weight class cheap stuff like infrared would be perfectly viable given the small arena.
03 22:16:00 auchter personally i'd prefer to work on the current project, but i'm sure you'd be able to get a ton of people interested in that
03 22:17:00 andy753421 there's also some people who want to do the sailboat thing
03 22:17:00 tommost Yeah.
03 22:18:00 tommost I'm not so sure about that, myself.
03 22:18:00 andy753421 both of those are good though, because they require more hardware design which is pretty much done for the current project
03 22:18:00 tommost I don't see how we can test the sailboat.
03 22:18:00 tommost But yes, that was part of the idea.
03 22:18:00 auchter i think the sailboat is cool, but ultimately infeasible
03 22:19:00 andy753421 yea, that would be the bad part
03 22:19:00 auchter the small combat robots is a good idea though
03 22:19:00 tommost Plus walkers are more viable for small weight classes, especially if we grant a, say, 300% weight bonus.
03 22:20:00 tommost And that makes for very cool robots.
03 22:21:00 auchter tommost: you fail at capitalization
03 22:21:00 tommost "And"?
03 22:22:00 auchter no, on the wiki "Power distribution"
03 22:22:00 auchter i fixed it for you.
03 22:22:00 tommost Oh.
03 22:22:00 tommost I fixed it for you.
03 22:22:00 Morasique hmm. somebody's lying or confused
03 22:23:00 auchter well, put me in the confused category
03 22:23:00 tommost I find sentence case to be more aesthetically appealing.
03 22:23:00 tommost auchter: You'll figure it out.
03 22:23:00 auchter good job starting a moving war
03 22:24:00 auchter and you're failing at consistency
03 22:24:00 auchter Wi-Fi Antenna
03 22:24:00 auchter 2007 Software Survey
03 22:24:00 tommost Oh, that's wrong.
03 22:24:00 auchter Design Competition
03 22:24:00 auchter Competition Plans
03 22:24:00 tommost I didn't create the latter two.
03 22:24:00 tommost And 2007 Software Survey makes sense.
03 22:24:00 tommost It's like a title of a document.
03 22:24:00 tommost The other page titles are names of components.
03 22:25:00 auchter you worry me.
03 22:25:00 Morasique solution: redirects for every possible capitalization for every page
03 22:25:00 tommost Noooooooo!!!
03 22:26:00 Morasique somebody write a bot to crawl the wiki
03 22:26:00 auchter i'll write the perl script
03 22:28:00 Morasique hey, i'm first in luglog for this month. yay me
03 22:29:00 Morasique also, nicely done me writing a script at some point to redirect the luglog keyword in firefox to the correct month. i don't remember doing that but i was pleasantly surprised when it happened
03 22:29:00 Morasique high-fived past-Morasique
03 22:29:00 Morasique s/d/s/
03 22:29:00 auchter Morasique: that was correct before the regex
03 22:29:00 Morasique :D in a way
03 22:31:00 Morasique tommost: way to never fix the 0 character logview bug
03 22:31:00 Morasique we need a bug tracker
03 22:31:00 tommost I haven't gotten to it yet.
03 22:31:00 andy753421 0 character bug?
03 22:31:00 Morasique andy753421: look at the scoreboard
03 22:33:00 andy753421 ah
03 22:33:00 auchter i blame python
03 22:34:00 tommost No, just a typo. + instead of +=.
03 22:35:00 tommost I've fixed it, but andy753421 doesn't seem to have set up svn on the new machine.
03 22:35:00 Morasique tommost: you probably got a pointer mixed up somewhere. or maybe python freed memory at the end of the stack frame
03 22:35:00 Morasique OH WAIT
03 22:36:00 andy753421 actually, https isn't set up on the server
03 22:36:00 tommost That would be it.
03 22:36:00 andy753421 which is why svn doesn't work (i wanted to make that only work on https)
03 22:37:00 auchter Morasique: at least C would warn you if you tried to do + instead of +=
03 22:37:00 Morasique c wouldn't warn you if you told it to melt the hard drive
03 22:37:00 andy753421 i put a couple other virtual servers on there as well (since they were running on my desktop as well) and set it up to change to a specified user requests to each virtual server (for security reasons) and was having problems getting that to work with ssl
03 22:38:00 tommost You mean Apache virtual servers or OMG VMs?
03 22:38:00 andy753421 apache virtual servers
03 22:40:00 andy753421 (using the mpm_peruser module)
03 22:44:00 Morasique er. do we want "quick and dirty hardy things" on the wiki homepage?
03 22:45:00 tommost Yes.
03 22:45:00 auchter wow.
03 22:45:00 Morasique mmk
03 22:45:00 tommost Incidentally, has anyone found a good way to solve the video overlay problem he describes/
03 22:45:00 tommost ?
03 22:45:00 Morasique i haven't had any of the problems he describes, which was part of my issue with it
03 22:46:00 Morasique but i also don't have your machine
03 22:46:00 tommost I managed to enable an overlay, but it dramatically lowers the contrast of everything.
03 22:46:00 tommost I had to set VLC to boost contrast by default.
03 22:46:00 auchter xv is occasionally funky for me (tearing and such)
03 22:46:00 tommost Yeah, and there's still tearing.
03 22:47:00 auchter i've gotten tearing to go away by editing my xorg.conf, but i forgot the options i used
03 22:51:00 andy753421 Morasique: i was looking back on your log from earlier about c++, it seems to be working fine for me..
03 22:52:00 Morasique there might be some subtlety i didn't understand, but changing it from a non-pointer that stored a dereferenced pointer to a normal pointer fixed the problem, and something was auto-freeing my pointer at the end of the function
03 22:52:00 andy753421 Was it that it 'foo' was a shallow copy of fooPtr, so when it called the destructor it freed it's fields as well?
03 22:52:00 andy753421 it it actually free fooPtr? (it should have nuked foo, because foo was allocated on the stack)
03 22:53:00 Morasique maybe it was a field problem, i can't exactly remember. that sounds right though, although i still maintain it's wrong to do
03 23:31:00 Morasique i have officially caught up on all my rss feeds
03 23:31:00 Morasique except digg, which doesn't count. digg never counts
03 23:31:00 auchter why bother subscribing to it?
03 23:32:00 Morasique i read it when i'm desperate
03 23:32:00 andy753421 i don't like RSS feeds, I rely on the internet to waste time and they're just to efficient
03 23:32:00 Morasique that's why you need like a hundred of them
03 23:32:00 auchter yeah, andy summed up why i don't use them
03 23:33:00 auchter when i've exhausted content from typical sites i read, i leave my computer
03 23:33:00 auchter reading paper products is usually more enjoyable
03 23:33:00 Morasique it allows me to avoid all the source websites, which by and large i dislike, and without it i would never remember what sites i read
03 23:33:00 Morasique you "leave" your computer? what is this nonsense
03 23:33:00 tommost I go for infrequently posted to blogs of interesting people. It keeps the volume manageable but keeps me informed.
03 23:34:00 Morasique that's a good use too, lots of my feeds are updated rarely
03 23:34:00 Morasique like the lug wiki recent changes
03 23:39:00 andy753421 (fyi, lug.phire.org is down, as i am trying to get it to stop segfaulting on ssl requests)
03 23:41:00 tommost That explains that.
03 23:46:00 Morasique power flickering
03 23:46:00 Morasique not cool
03 23:46:00 Morasique i stupidly went to luglog to see if my message was getting through, and saw that it was down and thought i must be off the internet
04 00:47:00 Morasique auchter: instead of clockcam, you may find this site useful: http://www.watching-grass-grow.com/
04 00:48:00 Morasique there was also a watching-paint-dry.com, but sadly the paint dried and the webcam is offline
04 00:48:00 Morasique rest assured the grass will continue to grow, however
05 20:40:00 tommost Finally!
05 20:40:00 andy753421 I should put that in a init script
05 20:40:00 tommost Indeed.
05 20:40:00 tommost Did you get HTTPS working?
05 20:40:00 andy753421 sortof
05 20:40:00 collinjc Ahh, this channel feels complete again.
05 20:41:00 andy753421 it works, but the privilege dropping isn't working properly so everthing is being run as the apache user
05 20:41:00 tommost Can I commit?
05 20:42:00 andy753421 yes
05 20:42:00 andy753421 anyway, loosing internet, so bye :)
05 21:03:00 Morasique hey, it's luglog
05 21:03:00 Morasique high-fives luglog
05 21:03:00 tommost You're late to this party.
05 21:03:00 tommost I've been celebrating for the last 20 minutes.
05 21:03:00 Morasique yeah, i don't pay attention :)
05 21:04:00 auchter i'm scared to enquire what your celebration consists of
05 21:04:00 tommost auchter: I committed to the lug website svn repository.
05 21:04:00 tommost Again and again and again.
05 21:04:00 Morasique .......hot
05 21:05:00 auchter my fears were justified
05 21:05:00 tommost Glad to have been of service.
05 21:08:00 tommost Andy's Internet connection makes me sad.
05 21:09:00 Morasique andy's distribution makes me sad
05 21:13:00 auchter hey, at least we didn't have to regenerate all of our ssh keys
05 21:13:00 tommost Ouch.
05 21:14:00 tommost Morasique: We need to find more things that suck about gentoo.
05 21:15:00 Morasique i would probably have to have some sort of experience with it to know that
05 21:15:00 auchter nothing in gentoo could compare to the pain that redistributing my key would have been
05 21:15:00 Morasique oh no you didn't :)
05 21:15:00 Morasique that was debian's fault, ubuntu is downstream :)
05 21:15:00 tommost Yeah.
05 21:15:00 tommost Indeed.
05 21:15:00 auchter keep trying to marginalise it
05 21:17:00 Morasique i'm torn between calling you british and making fun of gentoo more, and i can't decide
05 21:17:00 Morasique this is very distressing
05 21:18:00 tommost auchter, you are British. (Morasique: I've got him cornered. Go for the kill.)
05 21:19:00 Morasique gentoo sucks
05 21:19:00 Morasique laughs at auchter
05 21:19:00 tommost cackles with glee
05 21:20:00 Morasique i've had trouble with pretty much every source build i've ever tried, so i think that would be an issue if i used gentoo
05 21:20:00 auchter i've never had a problemm with gentoo's builds
05 21:20:00 tommost What was that about GCC, then? Something at work?
05 21:20:00 auchter that's not a gentoo build, that's me trying to build it as gcc-avr isn't in portage
05 21:21:00 auchter and it turns out it's actually some problem with binutils
05 21:22:00 Morasique well, most people don't have problems compiling stuff, i'm apparently unlucky or doing something wrong
05 21:22:00 tommost I have problems sometimes.
05 21:22:00 auchter i had problems when i was using distributions that weren't targeted for that
05 21:22:00 auchter like ubuntu, mandrake, red hat, etc.
05 21:22:00 tommost Usually the result in me finding a .deb on the amazing intarwebs.
05 21:23:00 Morasique well, i was going to congratulate you on the subtle ubuntu jab, but then you kind of killed it with the list :)
05 21:23:00 Morasique tommost: that's what i do too
05 21:24:00 tommost My problems are mainly with older projects, though.
05 21:24:00 tommost WebKit built without a problem.
05 21:24:00 tommost Albeit it took *forever*.
05 21:24:00 tommost Which is much how I imagine using gentoo feels like.
05 21:24:00 auchter yes, the webkit build is horrible
05 21:24:00 auchter it's also a fairly massive package
05 21:30:00 tommost Massive like OpenOffice.org? :D
05 21:31:00 auchter that's not even sane
05 21:31:00 tommost I want you to download it and find out what makes it so big.
05 21:32:00 auchter i have no desire to have that on my machine
05 21:32:00 tommost I don't blame you.
05 21:32:00 tommost OOo sucks.
05 21:33:00 auchter i have no use for it
05 21:38:00 Morasique hey, not cool, i like openoffice
05 21:38:00 tommost gasps
05 21:38:00 tommost You don't have to just because auchter doesn't, you know.
05 21:38:00 auchter yeah, i mean, there's no reason to like OOo
05 21:39:00 auchter i like ms office better, in fact
05 21:39:00 tommost Sadly, so do I.
05 21:39:00 auchter it at least has a usable spreadsheet program, unlike OOo
05 21:39:00 Morasique i used to like office better, but i think it was just a familiarity thing, i'm like OOo more and more
05 21:39:00 Morasique what's wrong with calc?
05 21:39:00 Morasique i've never done anything complicated with it
05 21:41:00 auchter it sucks at making graphs
05 21:41:00 auchter of course, ms office does too, but OOo is worse
05 21:41:00 Morasique ah. yeah, i don't think i've ever done that
05 21:41:00 auchter i don't any more, gnuplot blows them all away
05 21:41:00 tommost I have yet to find anything that doesn't suck at making graphs.
05 21:41:00 Morasique wait, don't tell me. command-line driven, cryptic syntax
05 21:41:00 auchter tommost: your search is over
05 21:41:00 Morasique ?
05 21:42:00 tommost Is there a GUI for entering data into that?
05 21:42:00 auchter tommost: probably
05 21:42:00 tommost I really just want a table like in Excel that I can paste data into.
05 21:42:00 Morasique hmm. this looks like it would be good if i were unlazy
05 21:42:00 auchter tommost: you can, you enter the data into a text file,
05 21:43:00 auchter separated by tabs and newlines
05 21:43:00 tommost :(
05 21:43:00 auchter why is that a problem?
05 21:44:00 Morasique text files are fire text intolerant
05 21:44:00 tommost I need an editor that lets me set tab stops variably.
05 21:44:00 Morasique emacs
05 21:44:00 auchter sounds like you need vim
05 21:44:00 Morasique i win
05 21:44:00 auchter damn you
05 21:44:00 Morasique i'm quite sure they can both do it :)
05 21:44:00 tommost I have determined that emacs' keybindings suck.
05 21:44:00 Morasique take it back
05 21:45:00 tommost The problem is that vim's do too.
05 21:45:00 Morasique or rebind them
05 21:45:00 auchter http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=472638&cid=22616008
05 21:45:00 tommost Apparently that's only allowed when it starts with Ctrl-C or something...?
05 21:45:00 auchter if no one saw that the other day when i sent it
05 21:46:00 tommost Yes, I read all that stuff.
05 21:46:00 Morasique tommost: er. what?
05 21:46:00 tommost It was quite convincing.
05 21:46:00 tommost And meshes with my experience of emacs.
05 21:46:00 Morasique rebind caps lock to control
05 21:46:00 tommost No.
05 21:46:00 Morasique i already have about 400 key bindings, i don't think emacs is going to add to breaking my wrist any more
05 21:47:00 tommost I really want to cut my spacebar in half....
05 21:48:00 tommost Frankly, Ctrl-Alt is just a stupid combination of keys.
05 21:48:00 tommost They're really far apart.
05 21:48:00 auchter i use that every day
05 21:48:00 tommost I don't want to mess with that in my ideal editor.
05 21:48:00 auchter ctrl-alt-# to add tags to the current view
05 21:48:00 tommost Or even the editor that I will realisticly end up using.
05 21:49:00 Morasique this is either odd sarcasm or i'm totally confused about what keyboard tommost is using
05 21:49:00 tommost Oh, it's okay for window management stuff.
05 21:49:00 tommost My laptop.
05 21:49:00 tommost There are two keys between Ctrl and Alt.
05 21:49:00 Morasique my god
05 21:49:00 Morasique ....
05 21:49:00 Morasique caps lock and num lock are far apart, ctrl and alt are not far apart
05 21:50:00 tommost For hitting both simultaneously it's a pain.
05 21:50:00 Morasique i guess if you were going for the third key with the same hand, i usually do ctrl+alt with one and the final key with the other
05 21:50:00 tommost Yeah, I've never gotten the hang of that.
05 21:50:00 Morasique there aren't enough modifier keys for me to be picky
05 21:50:00 Morasique i started overloading keys like power and the right click menu button
05 21:51:00 tommost I always get the negative reinforcement of hitting the context menu button by accident.
05 21:51:00 Morasique and pause, i like pause
05 21:51:00 Morasique oh, and num lock, num lock is my VM host key
05 21:52:00 Morasique i got a vonage ad in my mailbox today that says "Say NO to Promotional Prices! Our Price Starts Low, Stays Low", and directly beneath, "SPECIAL OFFER: Try 1 Month Free!"
05 21:53:00 tommost Hehe.
05 21:54:00 Morasique i like the keyboard at the link auchter posted, it's oddly appealing
06 12:25:00 andy753421 auchter: did you ever get plumber to start vim on a specified line?
06 13:53:00 auchtemm andy753421: no, i have plumber launch acme. i don't think vim is very well suited to the way plumbing works
06 13:54:00 auchtemm perhaps if i only had once vim instance open, and have each plumbing message received split the window...
06 13:55:00 auchtemm Morasique_work: didn't take you long to find irssi on addiator, i just installed it yesterday
06 14:03:00 andy753421 auchtemm: you can use 'vim --remote' for that
06 14:03:00 Morasique_work auchtemm: I /whois'd you yesterday and noticed it, it was a good excuse to get on irc at work
06 14:11:00 auchtemm andy753421: i'll look into it, but i really don't plumb text files very often, and when i do acme suffices
06 16:58:00 Morasique hmm. xchat highlighted auchtemm's line directed at Morasique_work. that seems wrong
06 17:29:00 andy753421 i think python thrives on perspective python programmers being ignorant of other scripting languages..
06 17:30:00 Morasique similiar to how C++ thrives on being the language everyone uses because everyone uses it
06 17:31:00 andy753421 "Wow, dictionaries are so cool! I love Python!".. believe it or not, those aren't exactly unique to python..
06 17:31:00 Morasique who are you mocking?
06 17:31:00 andy753421 not so much mocking.. but a couple of the people I work with haven't really used anything other than C++/Java so they assume everything is like that
06 17:32:00 Morasique ah. i like working with ignorant people, it makes me feel good about myself
06 17:32:00 Morasique one of the developers on my project told me today, and i quote, "java developers don't know shit"
06 17:33:00 tommost Indeed.
06 17:33:00 andy753421 I extend that to anyone who uses the term 'developers'
06 17:33:00 tommost Boo.
06 17:39:00 tommost I always thought that people made such a big deal about Python's dictionaries because Perl doesn't have proper data structures.
06 17:40:00 andy753421 tommost: thank you for proving my point :)
06 17:40:00 tommost My understanding was that they couldn't be nested or something strange like that.
06 17:41:00 andy753421 (i was referring to your use of the term "Pythons dictionaries" as if they were specific to python)
06 17:42:00 tommost I was referring to the way Python is often (by Python people) compared to Perl.
06 17:45:00 andy753421 It's really a vocabulary issue, people tend to say "Python's ____ are really cool" which makes people assume that there's something unique about pythons version of ____ that no other languages supports
06 17:46:00 andy753421 when in fact it would be more informative to say "other_language doesn't support ____"
06 17:47:00 andy753421 it's like going around and saying "C is so cool because it supports functions and if statements", it doesn't really tell you much of anything
06 17:48:00 tommost That's a good analogy.
06 17:48:00 andy753421 \end{rant}
06 17:50:00 tommost I would suggest that there can be something that is particularly appealing about how a certain feature is implemented in one language.
06 17:50:00 tommost For example, I quite enjoy Python's iterators (yes, *Python's*).
06 17:51:00 tommost And I like JavaScript's syntax for functional programming.
06 17:52:00 andy753421 So, what you're saying is you enjoy Pythons /syntax/ for iterators?
06 17:53:00 tommost The implementation as well.
06 17:53:00 tommost I like the simplicity.
06 17:53:00 tommost (Primarily as compared to Java's.)
06 17:53:00 andy753421 Please define the 'implementation' of an iterator?
06 17:54:00 tommost Design of the API is what I really mean.
06 17:54:00 tommost Using exceptions for termination, for example.
06 17:58:00 andy753421 that depends on the design of standard library stuff though, so it's not necessarily specific to python
06 17:59:00 andy753421 the way you say it still makes it sound unique to python though..
06 17:59:00 tommost It's not necessarily unique, but it is specific.
06 18:00:00 andy753421 what?
06 18:00:00 tommost I'm not quite sure what I meant by that...
06 18:01:00 tommost I think the issue is that you're reading something into what is said about Python that isn't necessarily being said.
06 18:01:00 andy753421 to give another example, you might say "I quite enjoy pythons format strings"
06 18:01:00 andy753421 even though there's quite a few languages that do format strings in very similar ways
06 18:02:00 tommost Yes, but if you were to say that you aren't really talking about the fact that it happens to support format strings... you're likely referring to the combination of the syntax, the modulo operator, etc.
06 18:02:00 andy753421 Yes, I /am/ reading something into what you said, and that's what bothers me. I think other people do as well, especially people who haven't been exposed to a lot of different languages.
06 18:03:00 tommost When you say "Python's ..." you're talking about it as a whole.
06 18:03:00 tommost For instance, I like hash tables.
06 18:03:00 tommost I like hash tables in JavaScript.
06 18:03:00 tommost I also like Python's dictionaries, specifically.
06 18:05:00 tommost If I say that, I'm not really talking about hash tables in general.
06 18:05:00 tommost But I don't really think that that refutes what you're saying.
06 18:06:00 andy753421 Let's take "I like Python's dictionaries." and "I like dictionaries in Python." as an example
06 18:06:00 tommost We already have... ;)
06 18:07:00 andy753421 the second one makes it more clear that you like how python implements dictionaries, not just that python has something cool called dictionaries
06 18:07:00 tommost Oh, okay.
06 18:07:00 tommost Yeah, you're right there./
06 21:27:00 auchter tommost: re: perl "<@tommost> My understanding was that they couldn't be nested or something strange like that."
06 21:27:00 auchter man perldsc
06 21:28:00 tommost No manual entry for perldsc
06 21:29:00 auchter http://perldoc.perl.org/perldsc.html
06 21:29:00 auchter ubuntu must suck at manuals
06 21:29:00 tommost It does.
06 21:29:00 tommost They're generally in different packages.
06 21:29:00 tommost And I usually forget to install them.
06 21:29:00 auchter that's stupid
06 21:30:00 tommost Well, it makes sense for most people.
06 21:30:00 tommost (GUI users.)
06 21:30:00 auchter ah, i forgot people like to remain ignorant
06 21:30:00 auchter god forbid someone read a manual and try to help themselves
06 21:30:00 tommost But I'd like it if there were a global setting that I could set to automatically install them.
06 21:30:00 auchter hence http://ubuntuforums.org
06 21:31:00 tommost That site is occasionally useful.
06 21:31:00 tommost Especially if you don't know what program solves your problem.
06 21:33:00 auchter apropos
06 21:37:00 Morasique i just realized auchter was talking about the command; definitely thought he was saying tommost's statement was apropos
06 21:37:00 Morasique that took entirely too long
06 21:37:00 tommost Not too useful if you don't have them installed. :D Feel the circular spin downward.
06 21:37:00 tommost (Morasique: Yeah, it took me a moment too.)
06 21:37:00 tommost I'm closing my laptop now. You guys are distracting me from Moyers.
06 21:42:00 auchter moyers?
06 21:51:00 tommost Bill Moyers' Journal.
06 21:51:00 tommost http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/index-flash.html
06 21:53:00 auchter i see
06 23:18:00 tommost auchtemm: I was thinking that maybe someday I'd learn perl. The link you posted is enough to convince me that every bad thing that I have ever read of it is true. Apparently it's like an interpreted version of C++.
06 23:20:00 Morasique the fact that people can and so often do redirect the standard output statements to a file is enough to make me hate it
06 23:20:00 Morasique the number of times i've read a script and not understood why i don't see outputs, only to realize 300 lines above where i am there's a line that makes all the prints not print to the screen
06 23:21:00 tommost What does this line look like? &^*&^*^*%>><>?
06 23:21:00 Morasique wow, is that really valid?
06 23:21:00 tommost Well, I just smashed on the number row a bit, but probably. ;)
06 23:21:00 Morasique oh, ok. i was very frightened :)
06 23:23:00 auchtemm i started writing stuff in perl again today after getting fed up with java at work
06 23:23:00 auchtemm it is nothing at all like c++, i don't even see how a comparison is justified
06 23:24:00 Morasique my current project uses C, C++, Java, Perl, Make scripts, Ant scripts, and a considerable amount of bash scripting. This is all during the execution of the program, not for building or anything
06 23:24:00 auchtemm ant makes me angry
06 23:24:00 Morasique with that list i'm quite sure nobody would be happy :)
06 23:25:00 Morasique i've always been too lazy to learn ant
06 23:25:00 Morasique like so many things
06 23:25:00 auchtemm i think i just have an (ir)rational hatred of XML
06 23:25:00 tommost Given that it's basically an XML scripting language, I fully intend to never learn it.
06 23:25:00 Morasique oh, we use xml too, for config files
06 23:25:00 tommost *sigh*
06 23:26:00 Morasique although one of the config files is a perl array that literally gets read in and eval'd by perl
06 23:26:00 tommost gasps
06 23:26:00 auchtemm oh eval, how i love you
06 23:27:00 tommost My project has some YAML. Which is slightly odd, since it's a Python project.
06 23:27:00 tommost Not that I mind YAML.
06 23:27:00 Morasique i'm sure python has a yaml library built in
06 23:27:00 Morasique :)
06 23:28:00 tommost I don't think so.
06 23:28:00 tommost I was just thinking that it really should.
06 23:30:00 auchtemm http://rafb.net/p/71RRfE62.html
06 23:31:00 auchtemm mmm, perl... that's what happens when you have a disco assignment due the next morning that you didn't start when you should have
06 23:31:00 auchtemm i love the fact that their syntax highlighter fails on the fourth line
06 23:31:00 Morasique i was reading all that knowing it had to lead to an eval at the end but still praying it somehow wouldn't
06 23:31:00 tommost Yes, that has me confused.
06 23:31:00 tommost I think that you've shown off that particular abomination before.
06 23:32:00 auchtemm oh, i have
06 23:32:00 auchtemm i was rather proud of it
06 23:32:00 tommost If I were to write it I'd do in in JavaScript, myself.
06 23:32:00 auchtemm if i were to write it, i'd figure out a better way to do it
06 23:32:00 auchtemm it was incredibly stupid
06 23:32:00 auchtemm but it worked, and i got full credit for it
06 23:33:00 tommost I can't even figure out what it's supposed to do.
06 23:34:00 auchtemm "outputting all of the solutions of the equation $x_1 + \cdots x_n = r$ with $m \leq x_i$ given $n$, $r$, and $m$."
06 23:36:00 Morasique are you aware you just typed tex into a text window?
06 23:36:00 tommost We should replace IRC with something else that allows inline TeX.
06 23:37:00 auchtemm so, this might sound depressing
06 23:37:00 auchtemm but i take notes for most of my classes in latex
06 23:37:00 auchtemm ...and i never compile them.
06 23:37:00 Morasique well it's not like that equation exactly required it, \cdots is ... and \leq is <=
06 23:37:00 tommost :)
06 23:37:00 Morasique ......that is very depressing
06 23:37:00 tommost I don't find it depressing.
06 23:37:00 Morasique well you should
06 23:38:00 tommost I could read it just fine.
06 23:38:00 Morasique you should at least typeset it and stare at the hotness
06 23:38:00 tommost I was starting to take notes in LaTeX at the end of the year.
06 23:38:00 auchtemm seriously, i have stuff like this: \[ H(s) = \left(\frac{-\omega_c}{s + \omega_c}\right)\left( \frac{-s}{s + \omega_c} \right) = \frac{s\omega_c}{(s+\omega_c)(s+\omega_c)} \]
06 23:38:00 Morasique you are damaged in the head
06 23:38:00 auchtemm that has never been compiled, yet i reference it
06 23:38:00 tommost Okay, now we're approaching pain.
06 23:39:00 auchtemm \[ \frac{dv(0^+)}{dt} = B_1 \alpha e^{-\alpha t}cos(\omega_d t) - B_1 \omega_d e^{-\alpha t} sin(\omega_d t) - \alpha B_2 e^{-\alpha t} e^{-\alpha t} sin(\omega_d t) + B_2 \omega_d e^{-\alpha t} cos(\omega_dt) \]
06 23:39:00 Morasique make it go away :'(
06 23:39:00 tommost Indeed.
06 23:40:00 tommost BTW, I intend to add a new feature to logview: tracking of favorite words.
06 23:40:00 auchtemm that's a bad idea
06 23:40:00 Morasique :D
06 23:40:00 Morasique you should make it pluggable
06 23:40:00 Morasique client-side addons
06 23:40:00 tommost Pluggable?
06 23:40:00 tommost Heh.
06 23:40:00 Morasique ftw
06 23:40:00 tommost I could add a Greasemonkey API.
06 23:41:00 Morasique another sweet feature would be character counts > 0
06 23:41:00 Morasique very web 2.0
06 23:41:00 tommost I have already fixed that.
06 23:41:00 Morasique i disagree
06 23:41:00 tommost andy753421 just hasn't updated.
06 23:41:00 Morasique glare
06 23:41:00 tommost He lost his Internet connection just as it was going through.
06 23:41:00 Morasique probably python's fault
06 23:42:00 tommost Of course.
06 23:42:00 auchtemm yeah, i'm going to have to say it's python's fault as well
06 23:42:00 auchtemm though it pains me that i'm agreeing with Morasique
06 23:43:00 Morasique well, i was being sarcastic, so it makes sense
06 23:43:00 auchtemm ah, right right
06 23:43:00 tommost I agreed with him in the hope that it would force you to disagree.
06 23:43:00 tommost I am disappointed in you, auchter.
06 23:43:00 Morasique tommost: we should take opposite stands on everything to determine who he hates more
06 23:44:00 tommost No. I disagree.
06 23:44:00 tommost Fervently.
06 23:44:00 tommost auchtemm?
06 23:44:00 Morasique nicely done
06 23:44:00 auchtemm yes?
06 23:45:00 auchtemm oh
06 23:53:00 Morasique cool: http://lug.phire.org/irc/logview/foo.log
06 23:54:00 auchtemm hehe
06 23:55:00 Morasique fun fact: the same four people have talked the most in this channel since december
06 23:56:00 auchtemm fun fact: we apparently have no lives
06 23:56:00 Morasique there may be a correlation
06 23:56:00 auchtemm but would that be related to the causation?
06 23:56:00 auchtemm i think i need to sleep now.
06 23:56:00 Morasique i'm not sure which is the cause and which is the effect
06 23:56:00 Morasique either way it's sad though
07 01:07:00 tommost Well, I implemented tracking of people's most popular words.
07 01:07:00 tommost Apparently all of us like "I" a great deal.
07 01:08:00 tommost I am disappointed.
07 01:09:00 tommost Apparently all of the seeding of "indeed" that I've been doing has had no effect.
07 02:16:00 tommost andy753421: Please update logview from svn.
07 02:17:00 tommost You'll need to install the pytz module, too.
07 10:47:00 auchtemm "install the pytz module", i see that happening
07 10:59:00 Morasique i find that andy753421 enjoys installing new things
07 10:59:00 Morasique also making tommost happy
07 11:00:00 Morasique tommos1: you should filter out short/common words
07 11:06:00 Morasique nice: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mrozekma/size_limit.png
07 11:10:00 Morasique i've had new updates every day for like a week, i'm not sure what they're doing
07 12:39:00 andy753421 i'm not necessarily against installing things, just things that have huge lists of dependencies and things that are marked unstable
07 12:40:00 andy753421 so.. go =pytz-2005m :)
07 13:11:00 andy753421 I'm sad, i'm trying to learn how to use gnu autotools so I downloaded a tutorial
07 13:11:00 andy753421 turns out it's a 557 page PDF
07 13:47:00 tommost andy753421: Does that mean that pytz hasn't been updated since 2005?
07 13:48:00 andy753421 `Available versions: 2005m (~)2007f (~)2008a'
07 13:50:00 tommost Well, it's an interface to the timezone database, so given that our our illustrious Congress decided that daylight savings time just *had* to be changed, you should probably go with the latest version.
07 13:50:00 andy753421 i've got updated timezone data installed
07 13:51:00 tommost I'll check how it works, whether it's generated from the database or proxies to it.
07 15:37:00 octavious hows summer going for everyone so foar
07 15:37:00 tommost Okay.
07 15:37:00 andy753421 octavious: currently, confused as hell by the gnu build system
07 15:37:00 andy753421 other than that it's been pretty good
07 15:38:00 tommost We've gotten a ridiculous amount of rain in the 'Haute.
07 15:38:00 tommost The creek is now a river.
07 15:38:00 octavious i have seen some pics
07 15:38:00 octavious crazy shit
07 15:39:00 octavious heard the SRC west lot has a few feet of water
07 15:39:00 tommost I haven't been to that one, but there's water all over the place.
07 15:40:00 tommost We have a new pond over by the volleyball courts.
07 16:30:00 auchtemm speaking of build systems that suck: http://rafb.net/p/wkYIjj14.html
07 16:30:00 auchtemm any ideas on why i'm getting that error?
07 16:31:00 auchtemm a bit of background: i'm chroot'd into a filesystem on a CF card
07 16:31:00 auchtemm i need to compile a module, and the kernel's being evil
07 16:32:00 andy753421 um, can we get a copy of that that's not all on one line?
07 16:32:00 andy753421 or is the error one line?
07 16:32:00 auchtemm http://rafb.net/p/QXmLqv77.html
07 16:32:00 auchtemm that's better
07 16:35:00 andy753421 what kernel is this?
07 16:35:00 auchtemm 2.6.20.3
07 16:35:00 andy753421 vanilla, crux, something you're working on, etc?
07 16:35:00 auchtemm vanilla
07 16:36:00 auchtemm i've definitely built it once before
07 16:42:00 andy753421 does menuconfig work?
07 16:45:00 auchtemm yeah, that's how i found and added the module i wanted
07 17:36:00 andy753421 so what storms caused rose to flood?
07 17:48:00 tommost The recent ones?
07 17:50:00 andy753421 yea
07 17:50:00 andy753421 oh, what days?
07 17:50:00 tommost The one yesterday?
07 17:51:00 andy753421 ok, was that the big line that wen't though?
07 17:51:00 tommost Huh?
07 17:52:00 andy753421 the weather folks here had been talking about a system that was building since about monday and then it came down off the Rockies on Thursday and caused a whole lot of rain
07 17:52:00 tommost That is an understatement.
07 17:52:00 tommost A "whole lot" doesn't begin to convey it.
07 17:53:00 tommost :)
07 17:59:00 andy753421 tommost: did you add the namespaces on the robotics wiki?
07 17:59:00 tommost What do you mean?
07 18:00:00 andy753421 don't we have a admin/public namespace or something?
07 18:01:00 tommost We have an Administrative namespace that isn't publicly accessible.
07 18:01:00 andy753421 I was wanting to add a 'Project' namespace to the lug wiki
07 18:01:00 tommost Everything else is, I think.
07 18:01:00 tommost Project?
07 18:01:00 tommost What for?
07 18:02:00 andy753421 yea, I've been working more on the weather program (https://lug.phire.org/svn/aweather/trunk/) I was talking about a couple days ago and was thinking about making a wiki page for it
07 18:02:00 andy753421 (there's not actually anything useful in SVN yet, just template code)
07 18:03:00 tommost So why do you need a Project namespace?
07 18:03:00 tommost Were you thinking that there would be other projects documented in this namespace?
07 18:03:00 andy753421 yea
07 18:04:00 andy753421 A separate wiki seems like overkill but just having it as a normal page seemed like underkill
07 18:04:00 tommost I guess that makes sense.
07 18:04:00 andy753421 So I was thinking a namespace or a portal or something
07 18:04:00 tommost I think that all you need to do to create a new namespace is create an article with a colon prefix.
07 18:05:00 andy753421 hm.. I was reading http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Custom_namespaces and it makes it seem like you have to edit the config files
07 18:05:00 tommost Oh.
07 18:06:00 andy753421 this is where it would be nice if wikimedia actually had some for of structure ;)
07 18:06:00 andy753421 I might just make a page for now though, then if it gets to be bigger i can look into doing something else
07 19:22:00 tommost_aorist I am getting very pissed off at sshfs.
07 19:22:00 tommost_aorist My connection keeps going bad, causing all hell to break loose on my laptop.
07 19:23:00 andy753421 everything hangs?
07 19:23:00 tommost_aorist Anything accessing a something on a server.
07 19:23:00 andy753421 'umount -l' is your friend ;)
07 19:24:00 tommost_aorist I've gotten them unmounted before, but everything remains broken afterward.
07 19:24:00 andy753421 there's got to be a better way to do it, i haven't found one though
07 19:24:00 tommost_aorist So I usually just restart the computer.
07 19:24:00 tommost_aorist It's sad.
07 19:24:00 tommost_aorist This is Linux.
07 19:24:00 tommost_aorist I shouldn't ever have to restart my computer.
07 19:25:00 andy753421 yea.. you can usually get by restarting whatever programs are using the files
07 19:25:00 tommost_aorist Earlier it somehow resulted in pulseaudio dying (I was playing music stored on my server).
07 19:26:00 tommost_aorist I couldn't figure out how to restart it.
07 19:26:00 andy753421 i don't have anything running as root accessing the files so if all else fails I can just restart X
07 19:27:00 tommost_aorist I think that Ubuntu runs pulseaudio in some odd way in order to get it working for all users.
07 19:27:00 tommost_aorist Anyway, the moral of this story is that sshfs needs to be fixed.
07 19:27:00 tommost_aorist Or I need to use NFS over OpenVPN.
07 23:46:00 auchtemm man, i didn't realize how bad the flooding was in terre haute
08 16:06:00 Morasique wow. povilusr is an impressive percentage of the user list
08 16:52:00 auchtemm Morasique: yeah, that's not necessary
08 16:54:00 Morasique er. what?
08 16:56:00 auchtemm 16:05 <@Morasique> wow. povilusr is an impressive percentage of the user list
08 16:56:00 Morasique what do you mean it's not necessary?
08 16:56:00 auchtemm having more than one account in this room
08 16:56:00 Morasique ah. yeah, i've never understood that
08 16:57:00 Morasique glares at tommost
08 16:57:00 auchtemm also glares at tommost
08 16:57:00 tommost auchtemm: Finally.
08 16:58:00 tommost I have two nicks here because my laptop tends to crash.
08 16:58:00 tommost And/or loose network connectivity.
08 16:58:00 tommost Usually the latter.
08 16:58:00 auchter screen + irssi solves those problems
08 16:59:00 tommost I like Pidgin.
08 16:59:00 tommost The problem is that apparently I can't use Parti with awesome.
08 16:59:00 auchter not so awesome now, is it?
08 16:59:00 tommost It's not like it would work in dwm.
08 17:00:00 tommost Parti requires support for EWMH for some reason.
08 17:00:00 tommost (Extended Window Manager Hints.)
08 17:00:00 auchter yeah, but i couldn't pass up that amazing statement
08 17:00:00 tommost I know.
08 17:00:00 Morasique aww, that's not cool. if you explain the acronym i can't quickly wikipedia it and then pretend like i knew what you were talking about all along
08 17:00:00 tommost I would have done the same.
08 17:01:00 tommost Morasique: Mwahahaha!
08 17:01:00 Morasique awesome really is a terrible name for something, it must suck to google
08 17:02:00 auchter my google-fu is so great that it hasn't been a problem
08 17:02:00 tommost It does.
08 17:02:00 tommost I have to combine it with "window manager"
08 17:02:00 tommost And "awesome wm" doesn't work too well, either.
08 17:03:00 auchter where's kleinjt these days?
08 17:03:00 tommost I've been wondering the same thing.
08 17:03:00 tommost I want to discuss robotics.
08 17:03:00 auchter as do i...
08 17:03:00 tommost But we need him here to mediate you.
08 17:03:00 auchter hey, i'm not too out there
08 17:03:00 auchter my ideas are mostly sane
08 17:04:00 tommost I lack the experience to fully evaluate them.
08 17:04:00 tommost Whereas klenjt, as someone who actually went to the competition, is fully qualified.
08 17:04:00 auchter i like not being challenged
08 17:04:00 tommost Clearly.
08 17:05:00 auchter so, who's going to send him an email berating him for not being here?
08 17:05:00 tommost I'll do it.
08 17:05:00 auchter ok, you're good at crafting incomprehensible emails with a tone of disdain
08 17:13:00 tommost Sent.
08 17:13:00 tommost But without the disdain.
08 17:48:00 tommost Legos!
08 17:50:00 tommost I think that we need a mailing list for the robotics team.
08 17:51:00 jboticsource yes
08 17:51:00 jboticsource also tom
08 17:51:00 jboticsource about the legos
08 17:51:00 jboticsource i have a pretty kick ass prodotype
08 17:51:00 tommost Screenshot!
08 17:51:00 jboticsource i will get u one
08 17:52:00 jboticsource it has several features which make it awesome
08 17:52:00 jboticsource so for the EE team, there is a "Deck" system
08 17:52:00 tommost I need to work on fixing the robotics team's web site...
08 17:52:00 jboticsource so that they basicly have drawers for their stuff
08 17:53:00 jboticsource so it is trivial to drop new boards in and take old ones out
08 17:53:00 jboticsource mechanically, it is strong as a rock
08 17:53:00 auchter tommost: bring freya up while you're at it
08 17:53:00 jboticsource it has a double cage system for its body
08 17:53:00 tommost auchter: I was going to do it all remotely.
08 17:54:00 jboticsource there are 2 roll cages which wrap around eachother
08 17:54:00 tommost auchter: And I wasn't talking about the domain name.
08 17:54:00 jboticsource and lock together as well
08 17:54:00 tommost auchter: I don't know what's going on there.
08 17:54:00 tommost jboticsource: I need pictures.
08 17:54:00 jboticsource the frame should be strong enough for one of us to stand on
08 17:54:00 jboticsource ok
08 17:54:00 jboticsource just a sec
08 17:54:00 auchter i'm quite terrified of what i'm hearing here
08 17:54:00 jboticsource btw i built one module of it
08 17:54:00 jboticsource in LDD
08 17:55:00 jboticsource the final design is one module 3 times over
08 17:55:00 jboticsource each module connects to another serially
08 17:55:00 jboticsource so we can make the bot "N" modules long
08 17:55:00 tommost auchter: This is going to be the scariest Lego robot ever.
08 17:55:00 jboticsource yes it will
08 17:55:00 tommost Also, awesome.
08 17:55:00 auchter what exactly is this for?
08 17:56:00 jboticsource btw can the motor controllers sink 25 amps per piece on passive cooling?
08 17:56:00 jboticsource auchter: igvc
08 17:56:00 auchter god, now i'm completely frightened
08 17:56:00 jboticsource i also built a lego camera mount
08 17:56:00 jboticsource the other day
08 17:56:00 jboticsource i am going to build a mast for it in the next day or 2
08 17:56:00 auchter jboticsource: what the hell kind of motors are we using that will draw 25 amps?
08 17:57:00 jboticsource we are using legos new Power function motors
08 17:57:00 auchter link
08 17:57:00 jboticsource sure
08 17:57:00 jboticsource each wheel has four of them
08 17:57:00 jboticsource and i plan for a 6 wheel machine
08 17:58:00 auchter uhh...
08 17:58:00 jboticsource http://www.philohome.com/motors/motorcomp.htm
08 17:58:00 tommost cpt_obvious: http://lug.phire.org/irc/logs/2008-06.log
08 17:59:00 jboticsource each motor has a gear down of 24:56
08 17:59:00 tommost This robot has gotten much scarier since we last talked.
08 17:59:00 jboticsource yes it has....
08 17:59:00 Morasique more CPEs :'(
08 17:59:00 tommost Morasique: ?
08 18:00:00 Morasique cpt_obvious is a cpe
08 18:00:00 tommost Yes.
08 18:00:00 Morasique thus, more cpes
08 18:00:00 tommost Why is this bad?
08 18:00:00 Morasique because cpe < (cs | se). i thought this was universally accepted
08 18:00:00 jboticsource by the way, each wheel has independent double wishbone suspension for optimal stabilazation and off road performance
08 18:01:00 tommost Morasique: Of course.
08 18:01:00 auchter se < (cs|cpe)
08 18:01:00 jboticsource tommost: i have 3 png here for u and the team
08 18:01:00 jboticsource where do u want them?
08 18:02:00 tommost Could you just dump them in your AFS HTML directory?
08 18:02:00 jboticsource do i need to vpn into rose for that?
08 18:02:00 tommost Oh, yeah, you may.
08 18:02:00 jboticsource hmm
08 18:02:00 jboticsource i dotn have that set up
08 18:02:00 tommost Er, just put them up somewhere.
08 18:02:00 auchter gah, just use sftp
08 18:02:00 jboticsource i will throw that on my Facebook
08 18:02:00 tommost :D
08 18:03:00 auchter and i must say that i don't like where this is heading
08 18:03:00 jboticsource it is great for you guys
08 18:03:00 auchter how's that?
08 18:03:00 tommost Yeah, plus we can hide your prototypes from auchter.
08 18:03:00 jboticsource it makes integration of the EE and ME parts really easy the way i have it set up
08 18:05:00 jboticsource tommost: check out my facebook pics
08 18:07:00 tommost That's pretty intense.
08 18:07:00 jboticsource yea
08 18:07:00 tommost If you e-mail me the pictures I can put them somewhere auchter can see them.
08 18:07:00 jboticsource it is mechanically very very strong and flexable
08 18:07:00 jboticsource ok
08 18:07:00 jboticsource just a sec
08 18:07:00 Morasique auchter matters now?
08 18:08:00 jboticsource na
08 18:08:00 jboticsource this bot is for his own good....
08 18:08:00 jboticsource it really is......
08 18:08:00 jboticsource tommost: what is your email?
08 18:08:00 tommost mosttw@rose...
08 18:09:00 jboticsource this bot shoudl be able to use the same EE stuff with no mods
08 18:09:00 jboticsource or very little
08 18:10:00 jboticsource sent the pics
08 18:11:00 jboticsource i shoudl be able to get s bunch of sensors on there 2
08 18:11:00 jboticsource accelerometers
08 18:11:00 jboticsource eopd
08 18:11:00 jboticsource ultrasonics
08 18:11:00 tommost Apparently ultrasonics are bad.
08 18:11:00 jboticsource compasses
08 18:11:00 auchter "eopd"?
08 18:12:00 jboticsource electro optical proximity detector
08 18:12:00 tommost How does that work?
08 18:12:00 auchter ah, ok, like banner sensors
08 18:12:00 tommost And what are these "lxf" files?
08 18:12:00 jboticsource it detects distance by the angle of reflected light
08 18:13:00 jboticsource they are teh files for the cad program
08 18:13:00 tommost I'd prefer PNGs...
08 18:13:00 jboticsource i gave u them..i thought....
08 18:13:00 jboticsource my bad
08 18:13:00 jboticsource i will resend them
08 18:16:00 jboticsource sent
08 18:20:00 tommost http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mosttw/lnk/igvc-proto/
08 18:21:00 jboticsource awesome
08 18:21:00 Morasique lego-y
08 18:21:00 jboticsource yep
08 18:21:00 jboticsource btw, that is one module
08 18:21:00 jboticsource the plan is to have 3 of them
08 18:21:00 tommost Why did you switch to 3 vs the original 2?
08 18:22:00 jboticsource more torque
08 18:22:00 jboticsource more stability
08 18:22:00 jboticsource less deformation
08 18:22:00 tommost Won't turning be somewhat more difficult?
08 18:22:00 jboticsource nope
08 18:22:00 jboticsource it should be short enough to be fine
08 18:22:00 jboticsource also 3 has more load carrying capasity
08 18:23:00 tommost How are the coupled?
08 18:23:00 tommost Is it rigid?
08 18:23:00 jboticsource very
08 18:23:00 jboticsource if u look
08 18:23:00 jboticsource at the pics
08 18:23:00 jboticsource the front of one connects to teh back of another
08 18:23:00 tommost I see.
08 18:25:00 auchter apparently my opinion is worthless, but i'll just say for the record (hi luglog!) that i do not like the idea of using legos. at all. in any capacity.
08 18:26:00 jboticsource and why is that?
08 18:26:00 jboticsource your EE stuff transfers over and integrates easier
08 18:26:00 jboticsource i am going to go get some lego sponsorship as well...
08 18:26:00 auchter you keep saying that, but never elaborate
08 18:27:00 auchter plus the fact that the motors are 9V, but that's a minor problem i have with it
08 18:27:00 jboticsource they will run on 12
08 18:27:00 auchter i'll be back in a bit to continue this discussion, but apparently my dryer vent is completely disconnected
08 18:27:00 jboticsource amusing
08 18:27:00 auchter it would be if i could breathe in here
08 18:29:00 jboticsource the motor controllers should be able to drive these motors
08 18:29:00 jboticsource klein was siting 160 amps per unit with proper cooling
08 18:30:00 jboticsource 25 is a safe over estimation as well
08 18:31:00 jboticsource brb
08 18:34:00 jboticsource back
08 18:35:00 Morasique http://theunixgeek.blogspot.com/2008/06/programming-salaries.html
08 18:35:00 Morasique high five for erlang
08 18:36:00 tommost [citation needed]
08 18:36:00 tommost I can believe that for Erlang, but I rather doubt Java's placement.
08 18:36:00 tommost And what's with Haskell? Just a bunch of graduate students slaving away?
08 18:37:00 Morasique yeah, i was depressed about haskell
08 18:37:00 jboticsource each indivigual motor stalls at 1.8 amps
08 18:37:00 jboticsource there are four of them per pack
08 18:37:00 jboticsource so that is 7.2
08 18:37:00 jboticsource amps per wheel on stall
08 18:37:00 jboticsource i called it 8
08 18:38:00 jboticsource and tripled it cuz there are 3 wheels per side
08 18:38:00 jboticsource and added one...
08 18:38:00 jboticsource so i called it 25 worst evil case
08 18:38:00 jboticsource technically it should only do 21.6
08 18:39:00 jboticsource i am confident that the controllers can take 25 if they can do 160 under ideal....
08 18:39:00 jboticsource the motors are almost the only place where the EE and ME team interface
08 18:40:00 jboticsource so if the controllers can do it
08 18:40:00 jboticsource all controllers, controller conrollers, tachs, should all remain valid
08 18:41:00 jboticsource if we use a lego based platform
08 18:41:00 jboticsource Lego will have a filed day with us
08 18:41:00 jboticsource the amount of press i could get us from lego would be incredible
08 18:42:00 jboticsource it would have international reach
08 18:42:00 jboticsource easially
08 18:42:00 jboticsource teh amount of eyes that would pass over us due to lego could score us something good...like more funding..etc
08 18:42:00 jboticsource not to mention the press that rose hulman will generate from this design
08 18:43:00 jboticsource especially because rose is pushing this robotics initiave
08 18:44:00 jboticsource if we did this, i can get lego reporters out here to interview us and write articles which will show up in international venues...
08 18:44:00 tommost jboticsource: Wait until auchter gets back.
08 18:44:00 jboticsource and that is not even the press and street cred and bragging rights we would get at the competition
08 18:45:00 jboticsource i want to state my case for him to read...
08 18:46:00 jboticsource also from a technical perspetive it is superroir
08 18:46:00 auchter i think andy sums it up best:
08 18:46:00 auchter 06/03/08 23:20 <andy753421> I am in that I would like to get experience from this club, and I don't think legos are standard industry practice
08 18:47:00 auchter legos are completely inferior to the other options, especially in the realm of motors
08 18:47:00 jboticsource it is true that there are better motors
08 18:47:00 jboticsource than the lego ones
08 18:47:00 auchter that's a small subset of the problems i have with using legos
08 18:48:00 jboticsource teh computational systems would still be our athlon box
08 18:48:00 jboticsource it woudl basicly be this years robot with a twist....
08 18:49:00 jboticsource your EE suff is still all valid. it si just not on 80/20
08 18:49:00 jboticsource that is all
08 18:49:00 auchter yeah, it's plastic instead
08 18:49:00 jboticsource yea
08 18:49:00 jboticsource it does not detract from your work at all
08 18:49:00 jboticsource it is basicly transparent
08 18:50:00 auchter believe me, i'm not concerned with things detracting from the current stuff we have
08 18:50:00 tommost Indeed.
08 18:50:00 auchter most of it is going to be redone anyway
08 18:50:00 jboticsource exactly
08 18:50:00 jboticsource and this is our chance to make something that is incredibly epic
08 18:50:00 auchter epic as in "being lego's bitch" ?
08 18:51:00 jboticsource how is that?
08 18:51:00 auchter 18:41 < jboticsource> Lego will have a filed day with us
08 18:51:00 jboticsource yea
08 18:51:00 jboticsource that is a good thing
08 18:51:00 jboticsource they will love us and sponsor us
08 18:51:00 auchter reptuable engineering companies loving us is a good thing
08 18:51:00 auchter a toy company loving us, not as much
08 18:52:00 jboticsource are u kidding me
08 18:52:00 jboticsource ?
08 18:52:00 jboticsource teh only difference is not 80/20
08 18:52:00 auchter i never said i liked 80/20
08 18:52:00 jboticsource is using 80/20 some how make us better?
08 18:53:00 jboticsource this new platform is superroir to 80/20
08 18:53:00 jboticsource the amount of reconition that we will get from using a lego system is awesome
08 18:53:00 tommost Okay, I have an awesome idea: buy a CNC machine and make all of the Lego parts we need out of alumnium. Not plastic, yet still totally awesome.
08 18:54:00 jboticsource i would go for that......
08 18:54:00 jboticsource except for the whole we need a cnc mill thing...
08 18:54:00 auchter what is the scale on those drawings anyway?
08 18:54:00 auchter how big will the overall thing be?
08 18:55:00 jboticsource 2 feet by 3 feet
08 18:55:00 jboticsource will be the final design
08 18:55:00 tommost I like it small.
08 18:56:00 jboticsource http://www.owlnet.rice.edu/~elec201/Book/legos.html
08 18:57:00 jboticsource there will be more stuff on it to make it larger
08 18:57:00 jboticsource the posted modules are just the main structure
08 19:00:00 jboticsource oh and btw i have built this cad prodotype
08 19:00:00 jboticsource it is not like i am just grabbing into thin air
08 19:05:00 zumbrujm sup guys
08 19:05:00 tommost Hey.
08 19:05:00 zumbrujm enjoying your summer?
08 19:06:00 zumbrujm I'm trying to access tibia from here and running into difficulty.
08 19:07:00 zumbrujm I've got VPN working just fine, but when I go to nautilus and type smb://tibia per the instructions on the wiki, it says there are zero items in the folder
08 19:07:00 zumbrujm any ideas on where to go from here?
08 19:07:00 tommost You could try tibia.rose-hulman.edu instead.
08 19:08:00 zumbrujm same result
08 19:08:00 zumbrujm it shows zero items in the bottom left corner
08 19:08:00 tommost I don't know, then.
08 19:09:00 zumbrujm ok
08 19:09:00 zumbrujm i'm gonna keep messing with it until I figure it out
08 19:09:00 Morasique did you try mounting it through a terminal?
08 19:09:00 zumbrujm I did
08 19:10:00 Morasique hmm. sadly i can't try it, because vpn hates me for some reason
08 19:10:00 zumbrujm hmm
08 19:10:00 zumbrujm what distro are you using?
08 19:10:00 tommost I'm on campus, so I can't really experiment much.
08 19:10:00 Morasique ubuntu 8.04
08 19:10:00 zumbrujm i see
08 19:11:00 zumbrujm Morasique: I just updated the gui instructions, I don't know if it will help but you might try it
08 19:11:00 zumbrujm i'm running hardy heron myself
08 19:12:00 zumbrujm because of the characters in my password, the terminal instructions for tibia gives me an error saying unexpected character
08 19:12:00 Morasique i imagine quoting would fix that
08 19:13:00 zumbrujm I then used single quotes
08 19:13:00 zumbrujm and it gave me this error message
08 19:13:00 zumbrujm mount error: could not find target server. TCP name tibia/Public not found
08 19:13:00 zumbrujm No ip address specified and hostname not found
08 19:14:00 Morasique yeah, vpn doesn't work for me still, it never has. i don't have any brilliant solutions though, i would expect mount to work
08 19:15:00 Morasique tommost: way to break logview
08 19:15:00 tommost It's been broken for days.
08 19:15:00 tommost I don't know what Andy did.
08 19:15:00 tommost I've been waiting for him to appear so that I can fix it.
08 19:16:00 Morasique oh, i can't ping tibia.rose-hulman.edu. is it down?
08 19:16:00 zumbrujm hmm
08 19:16:00 Morasique iait probably broke something
08 19:16:00 Morasique they do that
08 19:16:00 zumbrujm I can ping it
08 19:17:00 zumbrujm tom, can you log onto tibia right now?
08 19:17:00 Morasique hmm. maybe it's only accessible on-campus. there goes that theory
08 19:17:00 tommost I can ping it.
08 19:17:00 Morasique well wtf
08 19:18:00 zumbrujm I'm not sure why it gave me that error when I used the command line
08 19:18:00 tommost I won't try logging in because I've always had tons of trouble with smb on this computer. My failure wouldn't tell us anything.
08 19:18:00 zumbrujm seeing as I can ping it
08 19:18:00 zumbrujm lol, ok.
08 19:18:00 Morasique i get the same error, but it makes sense on my machine. kind of
08 19:18:00 zumbrujm maybe my vpn isn't configured quite right
08 19:19:00 zumbrujm but that would be weird, seeing as it is connected
08 19:21:00 Morasique it confuses me that root is required to mount in a home directory
08 19:25:00 zumbrujm is tibia TCP? because it says that TCP name tibia/Public not found
08 19:27:00 Morasique samba communicates over tcp
08 19:28:00 zumbrujm ah
08 19:43:00 Blazeix So, after a careful analysis, I have decided that rain sucks
08 19:43:00 Blazeix I'm in cedar rapids, ia now, and we are currently getting 2+ inches of rain per hour.
08 19:56:00 auchter Blazeix: that sounds pretty horrible
08 19:56:00 auchter it's cooled down to being 88 degrees and sunny here
08 19:57:00 Morasique today is actually the first day it hasn't rained here in about a week
08 19:57:00 Morasique i-65 is flooding
08 19:57:00 Morasique tommost: andy753421 (n=andy7534@ip-129-15-127-253.fennfwsm.ou.edu) has joined #rhlug
08 19:58:00 andy753421 hu?
08 19:58:00 tommost Morasique: I noticed this.
08 19:59:00 andy753421 reads the log
08 19:59:00 Morasique andy753421: logview is broken, so naturally i accosted tommost earlier
08 19:59:00 tommost Oh, that.
08 19:59:00 tommost Yeah.
08 19:59:00 tommost andy753421: Please do an update.
08 20:00:00 auchter andy753421: read the log anyway, though, there was some good discussion re: robotics
08 20:00:00 Morasique hmm. i just looked up accosted to ensure i spelled it right, apparently it means both "to approach and speak as with a demand or request" and "to solicit for sex". i would like to clarify that i did the former to tommost
08 20:00:00 Morasique i will also never use that word again, the ambiguity is dangerous
08 20:03:00 tommost You may notice an uptick in my use of that word here.
08 20:18:00 andy753421 luglog is updated
08 20:18:00 Morasique continues to glare at tommost
08 20:19:00 andy753421 auchter, tommost, jboticsource: perhaps we should ask lockheed/boeing/nasa/GM/whoever else if they feel that building a lego robot would be valuable engineering experience ;)
08 20:19:00 jboticsource intresting
08 20:20:00 tommost I'm primarily interested because it would get us a working, moving robot quickly.
08 20:21:00 andy753421 anyway, i'm going to go take a shower :)
08 20:21:00 jboticsource that will work
08 20:21:00 andy753421 i'll be back in ~15 minutes
08 20:23:00 tommost It was a 2.5ism. Silly Andy.
08 20:24:00 tommost andy753421: Do an update.
08 20:30:00 Morasique zumbrujm: you added restarting the computer to the vpn instructions; are you sure that's necessary?
08 20:32:00 andy753421 updated
08 20:32:00 andy753421 ok, so I had an idea
08 20:34:00 andy753421 I know Jay has the most experience with Legos so if he wants to work on a new vehicle with those that will work
08 20:35:00 andy753421 I think Alex has had a lot of experience with the non-lego stuff from First Robotics and I think he would be more interested in working on the existing frame
08 20:35:00 andy753421 Since there seems to be more software/electronics work anyway having two hardware project (with one being almost done already) wouldn't be that bad
08 20:36:00 andy753421 I think there's more ME's around anyway
08 20:36:00 auchter personally, i think the existing frame and motor set up could be improved upon greatly
08 20:36:00 jboticsource i agree
08 20:36:00 tommost Indeed.
08 20:37:00 andy753421 yea, I think that's what alex would be most interested in doing
08 20:37:00 jboticsource on the existing frame, there were a lot of last minuite hacks
08 20:37:00 auchter i'm not sure dividing people up is the best option
08 20:37:00 jboticsource he is dividing the largest team
08 21:02:00 tommost andy753421: Do another update on logview.
08 21:02:00 tommost There was another 2.5ism in my date parsing.
08 21:02:00 tommost I have used yet another slow, ridiculous workaround on it.
08 21:02:00 Morasique tommost: i'm picking up on your loathing
08 21:03:00 tommost If you ever find logview to be slow, just upgrade to 2.5. It should do something like half as many dictionary accesses.
08 21:03:00 andy753421 it's alright, I don't use it anyway
08 21:04:00 andy753421 I think what tom is saying is that the previous version of python always sucks
08 21:04:00 andy753421 If we take the base case to the be last ever released version of python from sometime in the future, i believe we can use induction to prove that all version of python except some hypothetical future version suck
08 21:06:00 Morasique i think you could use induction to prove the opposite :D. the base case is the future version is good, but before the future version there was the penultimate version, which must also have been good before the future version, and so on
08 21:06:00 Morasique apparently the new trend is having multiple instances of yourself in #rhlug, i feel like a loser
08 21:06:00 tommost You are.
08 21:06:00 Morasique :'(
08 21:06:00 tommost Get with the program.
08 21:07:00 jboticsource and tom just served you
08 21:07:00 Morasique suck on that
08 21:07:00 auchter well, if you take the current version of python, and say that it is much better than the previous version...
08 21:07:00 Morasique ok, i just had to be winning
08 21:08:00 Morasique oh, i guess povilusr is down to two now. hmm
08 21:13:00 jboticsource brb
08 21:20:00 Morasique somebody tell blazeix he's a quitter next time he shows up
08 21:23:00 auchter Morasique: here's your chance
08 21:23:00 Morasique Blazeix: you're a quitter
08 21:23:00 Morasique is victorious
08 21:24:00 Morasique hey, new error from logview. progress
08 21:25:00 zumbrujm Morasique: yes it is necessary to restart your computer after configuring the VPN. Otherwise, your newly configured VPN connection will not show up and allow you to connect\
08 21:26:00 Morasique that's odd, it shows up for me
08 21:27:00 Morasique wtf, thesaurus.com doesn't give you antonyms? that seems like a fairly glaring deficiency
08 21:27:00 Morasique i blame tommost and python
08 21:28:00 zumbrujm hmm. well if it shows up then whatever
08 21:28:00 zumbrujm is it working for you now?
08 21:28:00 Morasique well, it also doesn't connect for me, so i'm not the most reputable source :)
08 21:28:00 Morasique no
08 21:28:00 Morasique i've never messed with it because i don't actually need vpn for anything
08 21:28:00 zumbrujm hmm
08 21:29:00 zumbrujm i got it working so that I could get course software installed
08 21:29:00 zumbrujm but then tibia had to be gay so it doesn't really help me after all :(
08 21:30:00 Morasique yeah, those homosexual file servers are a pita. no pun intended
08 21:30:00 zumbrujm haha
08 21:30:00 tommost That's the same error as before.
08 21:30:00 tommost andy753421 hasn't updated it yet.
08 21:30:00 Morasique tommost: oh. well i was getting 500 errors the last time i tried, so this was exciting and new for me :)
08 21:30:00 Morasique i see
08 21:31:00 tommost Yeah, I reenabled cgitb so that I could see the error.
08 21:31:00 tommost Normally I'd consider a 500 error to be perfectly acceptable for unexpected inputs.
08 21:31:00 tommost (Like "foo.log", Morasique.)
08 21:33:00 Morasique raymond chen is also of the opinion that if you give invalid inputs you get no guarantees that everything won't explode, i always thought that was stupid. it should say something, like "invalid filename"
08 21:33:00 Morasique although i find much of what he says stupid
08 21:33:00 tommost I'm not sure what you're referring to.
08 21:34:00 Morasique he's a blogger that works for microsoft
08 21:34:00 tommost Ideally, a 404 error is what should happen.
08 21:34:00 tommost Is he the codinghorror guy?
08 21:34:00 Morasique no
08 21:34:00 Morasique http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/
08 21:34:00 tommost His name sounds familiar, but I don't recognize that URL.
08 21:34:00 Morasique and yeah, a 404 error would make more sense
08 21:35:00 Morasique i feel very light-headed. if i stop responding somebody call 911
08 21:35:00 Morasique i suspect tommost is using black magic
08 21:35:00 tommost Mwahahahah!
08 21:35:00 Morasique takes back all negative talk of logview
08 21:35:00 Morasique and python
08 21:35:00 tommost No, I'm eating ramen.
08 21:35:00 Morasique possibly connected
08 21:35:00 Morasique i'm insulting pidgin developers on my blog, maybe they're doing it
08 21:36:00 auchter i started using pidgin at work. i'm sad now.
08 21:36:00 Morasique for what? irc?
08 21:36:00 Morasique i use your helpfully provided addiator copy of irssi
08 21:36:00 Blazeix I wish I could use pidgin at work, my job is a all microsoft shop
08 21:36:00 Blazeix IE6 for the lose.
08 21:36:00 Morasique me too
08 21:36:00 Morasique well, we use firefox
08 21:36:00 Morasique i guess we're not that bad :)
08 21:36:00 auchter no, i use it for lotus sametime
08 21:37:00 auchter which is what everyone there uses for IM
08 21:37:00 Morasique oh, i see. office communicator also for the lose
08 21:37:00 Morasique i detest that program so
08 21:37:00 Blazeix yeah, we use that too
08 21:37:00 auchter haha
08 21:37:00 Blazeix communicator, that is
08 21:37:00 Morasique i imagine somebody has reverse engineered the protocol and written a replacement, i should check
08 21:37:00 Blazeix we actually do use lotus notes 6.5. It is probably the worst program ever.
08 21:37:00 auchter Blazeix: agreed.
08 21:38:00 Morasique everyone uses lotus notes but us, i'm starting to get concerned that we're missing the failboat
08 21:38:00 Blazeix so basically, we are an all MS shop except for the one decent program MS makes
08 21:39:00 Morasique Blazeix: where do you work?
08 21:39:00 Morasique more importantly, why aren't you on #rhlug during work hours instead of working
08 21:39:00 Blazeix Morasique: rockwell collins, and I don't have write access to the C drive
08 21:40:00 Morasique trusting of them
08 21:40:00 auchter holy crap that sucks
08 21:40:00 Blazeix I guess I could use the lug.phire irc client
08 21:40:00 Blazeix but i'm not sure how well it would work in IE6
08 21:40:00 Morasique you can't write anywhere? not even documents and settings?
08 21:40:00 auchter second day i completely blew away everything on my drive
08 21:40:00 Blazeix network drive
08 21:40:00 Morasique ah. putty it is
08 21:41:00 Blazeix I've spent most of this weekend configuring linux, I think its some sort of withdrawal reaction
08 21:42:00 zumbrujm I'm working for the government this summer.
08 21:42:00 tommost Wheeee!!
08 21:42:00 tommost ~
08 21:42:00 zumbrujm I'm two weeks in and although I have a nice computer computer, they haven't enabled my user account yet
08 21:42:00 auchter hey, someone else shares my disdain of them
08 21:42:00 auchter surprisingly, it's tommost
08 21:42:00 zumbrujm and it's 100% microsucks
08 21:42:00 tommost I apologize. "!!" is terribly improper.
08 21:42:00 zumbrujm haha
08 21:43:00 Morasique tommost: i was about to accost you for that
08 21:43:00 Morasique ......if you know what i mean
08 21:43:00 auchter zumbrujm: you should instead work for the DoE, they seem to like linux and plan9
08 21:43:00 tommost I do.
08 21:43:00 tommost blushes
08 21:44:00 zumbrujm oooooo
08 21:44:00 zumbrujm DOE sounds >>>>>>>> army research lab
08 21:45:00 zumbrujm IE is just god awful
08 21:46:00 tommost zumbrujm: The only logical thing for you to do is use remote desktop to get to a sane machine.
08 21:46:00 tommost Like, one with VNC installed on it so that you can get to Linux.
08 21:46:00 auchter or ssh with x-forwarding
08 21:46:00 Morasique I VNCed to my linux machine once so I could remote desktop to my desktop that isn't accessible from the internet. It was good times
08 21:47:00 zumbrujm hmm
08 21:47:00 tommost auchter: I was going for a setup that didn't require him to install any software.
08 21:47:00 auchter oh, forgot about that. all the windows machines where i work already have x-servers installed...
08 21:47:00 zumbrujm I wonder if that woudl be possible....they seem to like to control everything and completely eliminate productivity
08 21:48:00 Morasique that does sound like the government. and yet i'm still tempted to want to work there
08 21:48:00 Morasique i suspect i've been watching too much 24
08 21:48:00 zumbrujm Morasique:don't do it
08 21:48:00 zumbrujm ha
08 21:48:00 zumbrujm that didn't work
08 21:49:00 zumbrujm i work 9 hours/day and get every other friday off
08 21:49:00 zumbrujm there's a 5 minute coffee break at 10 and 2 which somehow manage to take 45-90 mins. each
08 21:49:00 auchter damn, that's nice
08 21:49:00 zumbrujm yea
08 21:49:00 zumbrujm but it gets really boring
08 21:49:00 Morasique they let us work whenever we want, as long as we work 40 hours/week
08 21:50:00 auchter i work 8 hours and then gtfo
08 21:50:00 Morasique the main developer on my project works 2pm - 10pm
08 21:50:00 zumbrujm nice
08 21:50:00 zumbrujm btw, I got tibia to work
08 21:50:00 Morasique oh, nice. what was wrong?
08 21:50:00 auchter usually starting at 7:15, as i don't remember the mornings at all after around 1PM
08 21:50:00 zumbrujm apparently if you install the ssl certificates everything is good
08 21:50:00 zumbrujm so I added a line on the tibia page to say taht
08 21:50:00 Morasique oh. hmm. ok, good
08 21:51:00 Morasique i don't recall ever doing that, but i may have
08 21:51:00 zumbrujm yea, noobness
08 21:51:00 zumbrujm it took about 30 secs.
08 21:52:00 Blazeix Nice. I now have a vertical dead line of pixels on my monitor
08 21:52:00 Morasique some would consider that bad
08 21:52:00 Blazeix Figures it would show up during the summer, when IAIT is 6 hours away
08 21:52:00 Morasique you can mail it in
08 21:52:00 zumbrujm why is the newest linux version of Maple only version 9
08 21:52:00 Morasique the license prevents them from allowing us to install the newest version, iait has to do it
08 21:53:00 Morasique and i don't think they will for linux
08 21:53:00 auchter hint: maple 11 is installed on addiator
08 21:54:00 zumbrujm addiator?
08 21:54:00 tommost drops his jaw
08 21:54:00 zumbrujm I am confused
08 21:54:00 auchter addiator.rose-hulman.edu, it's a public linux server
08 21:54:00 auchter tommost: he's an ME, he's excused
08 21:54:00 tommost Oh, okay.
08 21:54:00 zumbrujm yea, I am pretty much a complete noob
08 21:55:00 Morasique well, outside of CS/SE/CPE you would never encounter addiator
08 21:55:00 zumbrujm is it basically a server full of programs that can be accessed from individual computers?
08 21:55:00 tommost You can SSH into it and use the stuff installed on it.
08 21:56:00 Morasique it's just a machine maintained by IAIT for student use, but they have stuff like maple installed
08 21:56:00 tommost It's a fast machine.
08 21:56:00 zumbrujm HMM
08 21:56:00 zumbrujm this sounds very interesting
08 21:56:00 tommost Oh no.
08 21:57:00 Morasique waits in anticipation
08 21:57:00 tommost I see addiator going down under the weight of matlab processes in the future.
08 21:59:00 Blazeix auchter: You are now 60% of the users logged into addiator
08 21:59:00 Blazeix congratulations
08 21:59:00 Blazeix Morasique wins.
08 21:59:00 Morasique guess again. mwahahahahahaha
08 22:00:00 Morasique i'm pretty sure that guy from OS wins
08 22:00:00 Morasique forever
08 22:00:00 tommost How's this?
08 22:00:00 Morasique the guy that had like 200000 processes running
08 22:00:00 Blazeix the guy that forkbombed addiator a few weeks ago
08 22:00:00 tommost Wow.
08 22:00:00 tommost Did addiator go down a while ago?
08 22:01:00 Morasique uptime is 4 days
08 22:01:00 tommost I noticed that my mount-and-stay-mounted-dang-it process got killed.
08 22:02:00 tommost It must have gone down in the storms.
08 22:02:00 auchter hm, i'm winning again
08 22:03:00 Morasique yes, i closed screen. you win this round
08 22:03:00 Morasique the other guy on is editing his rose webpage; apparently he built a rubik's cube solver and is documenting it
08 22:03:00 Morasique s/built/is building/
08 22:03:00 tommost Yeah, that's Brian.
08 22:03:00 tommost He's the third member of the electronics team.
08 22:04:00 Morasique ah
08 22:04:00 auchter he needs to be in here more
08 22:04:00 Morasique well, somebody yell at him on addiator
08 22:04:00 tommost He's also my roommate; I was just helping him with CSS>
08 22:04:00 tommost *.
08 22:05:00 Morasique i dislike the phrase "web presence". very web 1.0
08 22:05:00 Morasique :)
08 22:05:00 tommost What prompts this?
08 22:05:00 Morasique it's on his homepage
08 22:06:00 tommost auchter: He was in here earlier.
08 22:06:00 tommost You ignored him.
08 22:06:00 auchter yeah, i saw
08 22:07:00 Blazeix has anybody here tried muttator?
08 22:07:00 Blazeix the thunderbird version of vimperator?
08 22:08:00 Morasique to think i was intrigued for a few scant seconds
08 22:08:00 tommost Yeah, I'm disappointed too.
08 22:08:00 auchter we've discussed it in here before
08 22:08:00 auchter i haven't tried it yet though
08 22:09:00 Morasique oh yes, Blazeix mentioned it last month. he mocked compiz :'(
08 22:10:00 tommost That's quick turnaround on a log check.
08 22:10:00 Morasique wget http://lug.phire.org/irc/logs/2008-0{1,2,3,4,5,6}.log && grep muttator *.log
08 22:11:00 tommost And I presume that you have a zsh alias for this?
08 22:11:00 Morasique no; not a bad idea though
08 22:11:00 tommost I'm shocked.
08 22:11:00 tommost is very shocked.
08 22:11:00 Morasique well, i don't need to search the whole log base that often
08 22:12:00 tommost I should add search to logview.
08 22:12:00 Morasique :D i was going to suggest that but felt bad for you
08 22:13:00 auchter i want a 9p interface to the logs
08 22:13:00 auchter or some sort of remote filesystem
08 22:13:00 Morasique :D a remote filesystem would be amusing
08 22:17:00 tommost auchter: Have you looked into fixing sshfs's handling of dropped network connections?
08 22:17:00 auchter tommost: no, i rarely use sshfs; mostly i just use nfs
08 22:19:00 Morasique does anybody know if you need the ssl certs to use tibia on-campus?
08 22:19:00 tommost If you do it might explain why I've always had difficulty wit that stuff.
08 22:20:00 tommost *with
08 22:20:00 Morasique tibia always worked fine for me on-campus, but i don't know if i have the certificates installed or not
08 22:21:00 auchter Morasique: i've accessed tibia on campus with no certs installed
08 22:21:00 Morasique ok, thanks
08 22:22:00 zumbrujm maybe you only need to install the certs in order to access tibia from off campus
08 22:22:00 Morasique yeah, i changed the wiki article to say that
08 22:22:00 zumbrujm sounds good
08 22:23:00 zumbrujm Morasique: did you get tibia and VPN to work on your computer yet?
08 22:30:00 Morasique no, i haven't been trying
08 22:32:00 zumbrujm oh
08 22:32:00 zumbrujm alright
08 22:33:00 tommost What a quitter.
08 22:35:00 Morasique random question since I don't know anything about ssl certs: why does http://lug.phire.org/wiki/Rose_SSL_certificates have you download two files if you only use one of them?
08 22:35:00 tommost Huh?
08 22:35:00 tommost I wrote those instructions.
08 22:35:00 tommost You install both of them.
08 22:35:00 tommost (Not that I'm sure if you need to.)
08 22:36:00 Morasique oh, oops. i misread the mv command. i only installed rhit-rootca.pem and it worked for the test wget, but the other one might be necessary for something else
08 22:36:00 tommost I think that the second one is for the ROSE-HULMAN Windows domain.
08 22:37:00 Morasique ah
08 22:40:00 Morasique what's the difference between using apt-install and aptitude? i'm told that aptitude is better, but i don't know why
08 22:40:00 tommost I don't know for command-line use.
08 22:40:00 tommost It has a console-mode gui for stuff.
08 22:40:00 tommost It's like a command-line syntaptic.
08 22:41:00 Morasique yeah, i've seen that, but sites say the command-line aptitude is for some reason better than apt-get install
08 22:41:00 Morasique they seem identical when i try them
08 22:41:00 tommost "This aptitude does not have Super Cow Powers."
08 22:42:00 Morasique i see
08 22:42:00 Morasique :)
08 23:17:00 tommost andy753421: Update logview, please.
08 23:18:00 andy753421 Make logview work the first time, please.
08 23:18:00 tommost Update to Python 2.5, please.
08 23:19:00 andy753421 no
08 23:23:00 Morasique that was odd. i reconnected and joined an empty #rhlug that didn't op me, and then couldn't connect again for a while
08 23:23:00 andy753421 Netsplit!
08 23:23:00 Morasique well that's what i thought, but why no auto-oping?
08 23:23:00 tommost Mighty odd netsplit.
08 23:27:00 andy753421 i don't know, i just made that up
08 23:30:00 tommost Would you please do that update?
08 23:31:00 Morasique is there a technical reason the web version doesn't just point to the svn repo, or is it just distrust of tommost
08 23:31:00 Morasique which is entirely understandable
08 23:32:00 tommost :'(
08 23:32:00 Morasique well, not specifically you :). i suspect andy753421 distrusts everyone
08 23:33:00 andy753421 actually, yes, i do distrust everbody ;)
08 23:34:00 andy753421 updated
08 23:34:00 tommost It works1
08 23:34:00 tommost *!
08 23:35:00 Morasique yay!
08 23:36:00 Morasique 10 points for not using andy's timezone
08 23:43:00 Morasique http://bemrose.us/images/curves.jpg
09 01:33:00 Morasique cool. i segfaulted emacs for the first time
09 15:51:00 Morasique_work i wish developers would put more thought into letting users cancel operations that are taking too long. Outlook randomly freezes at work while it tries to contact the server for some piece of information, and it's completely unresponsive while it's working. That's stupid in itself, but if it's going to do that at least give me a button I can click to cancel it
09 15:57:00 andy753421 every time I type `kill -9' i think to myself `that'll show um..'
09 16:02:00 Morasique_work windows desperately needs kill -9
09 16:03:00 Morasique_work it has taskkill, and taskkill has a "force" switch, but it's apparently more of a polite urging, because programs ignore it all the time; my definition of force tends to involve the programs not having a choice
09 16:11:00 auchter ah, my first day at work of not touching java at all
09 16:11:00 auchter it was pure perl, and consequently, pure bliss
09 16:14:00 andy753421 auchter: there's nothing pure about perl
09 16:15:00 auchter but... it's so pearly
09 16:46:00 Morasique_work auchter: you are clearly deluded
09 16:47:00 Morasique_work i am forced to work with perl every day; I try to ease the pain by doing so in emacs, but it's Windows emacs, so it doesn't help much
09 16:47:00 Morasique_work they also denied my request for vpn access. companies are very stupid about security
09 16:47:00 Morasique_work they're cool (by cool i mean unaware) with my scping stuff home everyday, but not with vpning so i can access it efficiently
09 16:48:00 auchter why would you scp stuff to home?
09 16:48:00 Morasique_work because i get sad and lonely and do work at night :)
09 16:49:00 auchter wow. you're clearly more motivated than me.
09 16:49:00 auchter i get paid for 8 hours, so i do 8 hours of work
09 16:49:00 Morasique_work well, they don't care/monitor when we work, so i prefer to leave early and finish stuff at home. i don't tend to work extra unless i'm very bored
09 16:49:00 Morasique_work and i have the internet, so very bored doesn't happen often
09 16:50:00 auchter ah, i see
09 17:38:00 Morasique today i met somebody who had never heard of twitter. it warmed my heart
09 17:40:00 andy753421 I <3 /dev/shm
09 17:47:00 Morasique what did you use it for?
09 18:15:00 andy753421 make sqlite faster
09 18:15:00 Morasique ah. fancy
09 18:42:00 auchter sane people vs. lego people, round 2
09 18:43:00 auchter 2x batteries at 38lbs/per, + 20lbs payload = 96lbs minimum
09 18:43:00 auchter and that's omitting quite a bit (computer, gps, wiring, various boards and heat sinks, etc.)
09 18:44:00 auchter looking at those motors, i'm wary of it being able to carry anything near that weight on the type of terrain we're crossing
09 18:47:00 auchter jboticsource, tommost: rebuttal?
09 18:48:00 tommost We weren't thinking that we'd be using those batteries, for obvious reasons.
09 18:56:00 auchter the SLAs work fine for the current design, and would work fine for other reasonable designs. to me, it doesn't seem reasonable to buy replacements for >$200 of batteries that we already have
09 18:58:00 tommost >$200?
09 18:58:00 auchter http://www.batteriesplus.com/p-32629-12v-44ah-agm-vrla-cu-term.aspx
09 18:59:00 jboticsource oh ok
09 18:59:00 jboticsource just looked here...
09 18:59:00 tommost A site that doesn't list prices: always the best choice for citing costs.
09 19:00:00 andy753421 jboticsource: speaking of which, when do I get paid back for all that stuff?
09 19:00:00 auchter tommost: enter zip code
09 19:00:00 tommost Indeed.
09 19:00:00 jboticsource before july 1st
09 19:00:00 jboticsource or at least that is the deadline for submission of stuff
09 19:00:00 andy753421 well, have they been submitted?
09 19:00:00 jboticsource i plan on going back to my apt to file this weekend
09 19:00:00 jboticsource they have not
09 19:00:00 andy753421 alright
09 19:00:00 jboticsource that is my weekend project
09 19:01:00 andy753421 ok, before you go, can you send me a list of all the things you're going to submit?
09 19:01:00 jboticsource like recipt wise?
09 19:02:00 andy753421 yes, i'd like to make sure nothings is missing
09 19:02:00 jboticsource those lego motors are pretty torqey
09 19:02:00 jboticsource they are also geared down 1:2.33
09 19:03:00 jboticsource on the final drive
09 19:03:00 jboticsource and that is on each wheel
09 19:03:00 jboticsource there is plenty of torque
09 19:04:00 auchter these gears and shafts are plastic, correct?
09 19:04:00 jboticsource yes
09 19:04:00 jboticsource i have it set up that the main drive axel does not do the mian driving
09 19:05:00 jboticsource cuz it would eat the axel alive
09 19:05:00 auchter i like this quote from the site you linked me to yesterday: "LEGO Technics are fun to play with and allow the construction of interesting structures, but they are not always easy to use. In fact, it is often quite challenging to build a LEGO device that does not fall apart at the slightest provocation."
09 19:05:00 jboticsource if u look, the wheels are mounted on a turntable
09 19:05:00 jboticsource i will also point out that i have been building in this system since 2000
09 19:06:00 jboticsource and legos in general since i was 2
09 19:06:00 jboticsource i have a clue how to build a structure
09 19:07:00 jboticsource it can take some time to get good at building in that style
09 19:07:00 jboticsource and i have put in that time
09 19:09:00 jboticsource also legos not really need any special tools to build with
09 19:10:00 jboticsource and would hold up better to the vibration of transport and operation
09 19:10:00 jboticsource legos are also easier to service
09 19:11:00 auchter so basically you're saying its difficult to learn to be as good as you are, to be competent enough to put together a good structure?
09 19:11:00 jboticsource to put together something on this magniture
09 19:11:00 jboticsource magnitude in size
09 19:12:00 jboticsource most people dont build robots that are very large
09 19:12:00 auchter that's an argument against it, in my opinion, as when you leave, then what?
09 19:12:00 jboticsource it is there
09 19:12:00 jboticsource it is easy to visually inspect the system
09 19:12:00 jboticsource and i have building instructions
09 19:13:00 jboticsource as Lego Digital Designer makes instructions
09 19:13:00 jboticsource the structure will be documented to the last detail
09 19:13:00 jboticsource and leave a trail for others
09 19:14:00 jboticsource I am also not going away anytime soon
09 19:14:00 jboticsource i will be at rose for at least 4 more years
09 19:14:00 jboticsource maybe 5
09 19:19:00 jboticsource you will literally have a piece by piece instruction for the entire system
09 19:19:00 jboticsource anyone can rebuild it or repair it
09 19:21:00 jboticsource even ppl not at rose....
09 19:21:00 jboticsource or who dont have much experience
09 19:21:00 andy753421 and if you wan't to modify it?
09 19:22:00 jboticsource the modified robot will also have instructions as it will be in LDD
09 19:24:00 andy753421 and if someone else want's to modify it?
09 19:24:00 andy753421 (someone who doesn't have as extensive lego experience as you)
09 19:24:00 jboticsource LDD is easy to use and pretty much idiot proof
09 19:24:00 jboticsource linking...
09 19:24:00 andy753421 jboticsource: i've looked at LDD before,
09 19:25:00 jboticsource http://ldd.lego.com/
09 19:25:00 jboticsource what version?
09 19:25:00 andy753421 but you previously mentioned that it's difficult to create a large robot out of legos
09 19:25:00 jboticsource it is true
09 19:25:00 jboticsource it is mainly an experiece thing
09 19:26:00 jboticsource that bot design however is solid
09 19:27:00 andy753421 so how would anyone besides yourself be able to make any modifications?
09 19:28:00 auchter this is a pretty custom skill that seems to require a lot of individual time spent, which would make it unique amoung the teams
09 19:28:00 jboticsource what would be a mod that you are thinking about? Adding a feature or a subsystem would be easy.
09 19:28:00 jboticsource the main structure, suspensions, power module i dont see changing much
09 19:28:00 jboticsource changing things like
09 19:28:00 andy753421 ever is a long time
09 19:28:00 jboticsource teh suspension travel is easy
09 19:29:00 jboticsource for example
09 19:29:00 jboticsource or changing the wheels
09 19:29:00 jboticsource or shuffling mounting points
09 19:30:00 jboticsource just short of completely redoing it, it requires almost no effort
09 19:30:00 jboticsource to change
09 19:38:00 auchter i guess what i'm getting at is that the art of lego design is not something taught in upper-level mechanical engineering courses
09 19:45:00 jboticsource i agree
09 19:45:00 jboticsource but teh IGVC is not a mech competition
09 19:45:00 jboticsource co
09 19:45:00 jboticsource contrast DARPA Grand Challenge with indy racing
09 19:46:00 auchter no, but i think we should strive to either make use of skills learned in courses, or use technology that is used in industry
09 19:47:00 jboticsource the current frame is a box of 80/20....woo hoo....
09 19:47:00 auchter which is actually used in industry; legos are not.
09 19:47:00 jboticsource true, but building with 80/20 is no harder than doing it with legos
09 19:48:00 jboticsource if this were arial
09 19:48:00 auchter it's not about it being harder
09 19:48:00 jboticsource i would agree with you
09 19:48:00 jboticsource if there were a real mechanical challenge involved i would not advocate the use of legos
09 19:49:00 jboticsource but using legos has other advantages...non technical advantages...over 80/20
09 19:49:00 jboticsource which we dissussed yesterday
09 19:50:00 jboticsource ie the press and spread that we could get by doing a lego system would far outstrip that of our 80/20
09 19:50:00 auchter so, i obviously can't speak for everyone else, but press is the last thing i'm concerned with
09 19:50:00 tommost Let's make one thing clear: whatever we go to the competition with next year, it will not involve 80/20.
09 19:51:00 auchter tommost: and i'm fine with that, but i contend that it should also not involve legos
09 19:51:00 auchter and you keep talking about just 80/20, ignoring drivetrain
09 19:51:00 auchter legos are limiting, and we've no way gone to the limit of what we can do without them
09 19:51:00 tommost Yes, gears would be good.
09 19:51:00 auchter hell, the gearboxes we use on my high school team were orders of magnitude better than what we have now
09 19:52:00 jboticsource we dont even have a box lol
09 19:52:00 auchter i understand that
09 19:53:00 auchter but i contend that more is gained from designing a working gearbox without legos than with legos
09 19:54:00 jboticsource then maybe we should do that next time and not make some half-assed design....
09 19:54:00 jboticsource i like andy's idea of paralled devolpment
09 19:54:00 jboticsource we can have a mini version
09 19:54:00 tommost We *need* parallel development.
09 19:54:00 tommost It is not optional.
09 19:54:00 auchter tommost: it is optional in the sense he's talking about
09 19:54:00 tommost We cannot do well in this competition without nearly an entire year to mess with software.
09 19:55:00 auchter i don't completely agree with having two separate mechanical teams
09 19:55:00 tommost Oh, I was talking about having two robots.
09 19:55:00 jboticsource they are not seperate
09 19:55:00 jboticsource there is one mechanical team with two projects
09 19:55:00 auchter semantics
09 19:55:00 jboticsource no not semantics
09 19:55:00 tommost i.e., one made of legos that is ready *now* and one of shiny CNC'd aluminum for the competition (if it gets done).
09 19:55:00 jboticsource people are free to work on either
09 19:56:00 jboticsource i imagine heading up the lego bit at least....
09 19:56:00 jboticsource i could soak up the lego work myself if i wanted to
09 19:56:00 jboticsource as there is no machine shop needed
09 19:57:00 jboticsource it would also make a nice plan B
09 19:58:00 jboticsource at least
09 19:58:00 tommost Plan L.
09 19:58:00 tommost :D
09 19:58:00 jboticsource nice
09 20:06:00 jboticsource the software team will be able to deveolp on the same hardware as well
09 20:17:00 jboticsource bbl napping
09 21:14:00 andy753421 if you call realloc and pass a size smaller than the current size does it free up the extra space?
09 21:18:00 auchter you would know better than i would, but the man page makes it sound like the answer is yes
09 21:19:00 andy753421 eh, i put a comment in, i'll fix it if it becomes a probelm
09 21:28:00 zumbrujm sup guy
09 21:29:00 zumbrujm I would like to move the contents of a directory to another directory, but I don't want to simply move the original directory
09 21:29:00 zumbrujm what command could I use for that
09 21:29:00 zumbrujm I know how to move individual files, but I want to move all the files in that directory
09 21:30:00 andy753421 zumbrujm: 'mv file1 file1 .. filen destination' so 'mv src_dir/* dest_dir/'
09 21:31:00 tommost But be careful about getting dot files.
09 21:31:00 zumbrujm hmm
09 21:32:00 zumbrujm so the characters '/*' means to get the directory contents
09 21:34:00 andy753421 zumbrujm: it's a wildcard, so it matches anything items in the direcotry
09 21:35:00 andy753421 zumbrujm: you can do stuff like 'foo*bar' what will match 'foo123bar', 'foobar', 'fooabcbar', etc
09 23:05:00 auchter tommost: how's project.rhitrobotics.org coming along?
10 03:08:00 andy753421 so I'm trying to read though some code for a weather program..
10 03:08:00 andy753421 their directory structure is amazing..
10 03:09:00 andy753421 http://andy753421.ath.cx/dirs.txt
10 03:10:00 andy753421 that reminds me of 372 gone terrible wrong
10 10:40:00 Morasique_work i'm supposed to be writing a script in perl. i've decided i don't hate myself enough, so i'm writing it in python instead
10 10:58:00 auchter i am just about finished with my glorious perl script
10 10:59:00 auchter i just got to test some features of it that i wrote yesterday a minute ago
10 10:59:00 auchter i love it when things work the first time
10 10:59:00 Morasique_work i tend to be suspicious. i glare at my computer and wonder what it's hiding
10 11:04:00 Morasique_work i needed to take a string and escape quotes and backslashes. i did str.replace('"','\\"').replace("\\","\\\\");
10 11:04:00 Morasique_work it may take you all of 3 seconds to realize how stupid that is
10 11:07:00 andy753421 why is that stupid?
10 11:08:00 andy753421 well, i guess you did it the wrong way..
10 11:09:00 Morasique_work i had them in the wrong order, so everytime it convert " to \" it would immediately convert the \ to \\ and i'd have \\"
10 11:09:00 Morasique_work s/convert/converted/
10 11:13:00 andy753421 ["\\] :)
10 11:22:00 Morasique_work i have no idea what that means :)
10 11:28:00 andy753421 str.replace('["\\]', '\\\0') should do both at the same time
10 11:30:00 Morasique_work oh, i see. regular expressions didn't occur to me at all
10 11:31:00 Morasique_work php has a string replace function that takes two arrays and replaces every occurance of old[i] with new[i]; apparently python isn't cool enough for that
10 11:31:00 Morasique_work glares at tommost
10 11:32:00 auchter glares at python and php
10 11:49:00 Morasique_work auchter: you should let the jealousy out, bottling it up is bad for you
10 11:50:00 andy753421 Morasique: you know, Unix has a function for that as well, it's called 'tr'
10 11:51:00 andy753421 Bash ftw :)
10 11:58:00 auchter Morasique_work: ok, so i'm not really qualified to criticize python, as i've never really programmed anything in it; i mostly do it to annoy you and tom
10 11:58:00 auchter but php makes me shudder
10 12:13:00 Morasique_work andy753421: tr is exactly what i wanted while I was writing it :)
10 12:13:00 Morasique_work and yes, everyone hates php :'(
10 14:01:00 Morasique_work fun fact: 62799 of those "you're out of space" e-mails will fill up the space you have when you start getting them. I think I'm going to try for that
10 14:13:00 Morasique_work hmm. on second thought, they'll have closed my rose account before that happens. suck
10 14:47:00 auchter Morasique_work: how long does it take for that many messages to be sent? (i'm lazy and forget the sending interval)
10 15:02:00 Morasique_work they send them once/hour, so a little over 7 years
10 15:03:00 Morasique_work assuming i save no other e-mail in that time
10 15:05:00 Morasique_work ooo. paycheck
10 15:24:00 auchter Morasique_work: yay taxes
10 15:51:00 Morasique_work well, i like to think positive and assume i get paid more than i'll owe
10 15:52:00 Morasique_work also, they don't take taxes out, so for the moment i get to pretend they don't exist
10 17:26:00 tommost auchter: You mean the redesign? I've done a little work on it.
10 17:30:00 tommost If you're referring to the domain being down, I once again state that it is Andy's job to fix that.
10 17:32:00 auchter tommost: alright then
10 17:32:00 auchter andy753421: hear from jon at all?
10 17:32:00 auchter er, tommost that is
10 17:32:00 tommost Nope.
10 17:32:00 tommost Wait—I'll check my e-mail.
10 17:47:00 andy753421 someone remind me to fix the rhitrobotics domain tonight
10 17:47:00 tommost Will do.
10 17:47:00 Morasique andy753421: fix the rhitrobotics domain tonight
10 17:47:00 Morasique that'll teach you to dangle modifiers
10 17:48:00 andy753421 Morasique: no it wont
10 18:46:00 tommost Fuck you, Apple: http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pFIHldY_CkszsFxMkQOReAQ&gid=2
10 18:49:00 Morasique impressive
10 18:51:00 auchter i usually just ignore them instead
10 18:51:00 tommost I'm wondering what a "Splat operator" is. Even Apple seems to like it.
10 18:53:00 auchter i'm still wondering what ecmascript is
10 18:53:00 Morasique javascript
10 18:53:00 tommost JavaScrpt.
10 18:53:00 Morasique ftw
10 18:53:00 tommost !!!
10 18:53:00 Morasique i call it ecmascript when i want to confuse people
10 18:53:00 Morasique which is often
10 18:53:00 auchter oh, so it's irrelevant
10 18:54:00 tommost auchter: What does that mean?
10 18:54:00 Morasique oh no you didn't
10 18:54:00 auchter i don't use it, i don't have any desire to use it, so it doesn't concern me
10 18:54:00 Morasique some of us have to write web pages. actually, i seem to have to write web pages an awful lot for somebody who doesn't particularly enjoy writing web pages
10 18:54:00 auchter hence, irrelevant
10 18:54:00 Morasique s/$/ to auchter/
10 18:55:00 tommost Indeed.
10 18:56:00 tommost I was looking forward to using ECMAScript4 as a general-purpose scripting language.
10 18:56:00 tommost I might like it better than Python.
10 18:56:00 auchter use perl; it's so anti-unix that even i like it
10 18:57:00 auchter wait, that didn't make sense
10 18:57:00 auchter ok, so picture time
10 18:57:00 Morasique steve yegge is firmly of the impresssion ecmascript4 is going to be the big new language
10 18:57:00 auchter imagine a great circle
10 18:57:00 tommost Oh, yeah, he is.
10 18:57:00 auchter or wait, an elliptic curve
10 18:57:00 Morasique and he uses emacs, so he's a genius
10 18:57:00 tommost His circle is bigger than auchter's.
10 18:57:00 Morasique much bigger
10 18:57:00 tommost And more elliptic.
10 18:57:00 auchter and, you see, here's unix
10 18:58:00 Morasique much more elliptic
10 18:58:00 auchter and it's good and wholesome
10 18:58:00 tommost So very wholesome.
10 18:58:00 tommost (Yegge, that is.)
10 18:58:00 tommost (Not auchter.)
10 18:58:00 auchter and i don't know where i was going with that
10 18:58:00 Morasique it's ok, we weren't paying much attention
10 18:58:00 Morasique i figured i'd check the log later and see where it went
10 18:58:00 auchter well, if you do, tell me
10 18:59:00 Morasique np
10 18:59:00 Morasique i'm going to start an emacs users group
10 18:59:00 Morasique :)
10 18:59:00 Morasique oh, i meant to send this first: http://www.reddit.com/info/6mt3h/comments/
10 18:59:00 Morasique that was probably random
10 19:00:00 auchter Morasique: you could have meetings all the time, considering you're the only one who uses it
10 19:00:00 Morasique povilusr_ uses it. there is no higher praise
10 19:00:00 Morasique and steve yegge. he would come
10 19:01:00 tommost Oooo....
10 19:01:00 Morasique and tommost is impressionable
10 19:01:00 auchter Morasique: his presentation contradicts that statement
10 19:01:00 tommost What's this?
10 19:01:00 Morasique i missed it, i heard the vim presenter was mean
10 19:01:00 auchter i was a bit slow with the typing, the lentil soup got in the way
10 19:14:00 auchter well, since the robotics wiki is down: we need two of these: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail?name=GH3065-ND
10 19:15:00 tommost Oh, it's actually down.
10 19:15:00 tommost I should go turn it on.
10 19:15:00 auchter tommost: freya!
10 19:15:00 tommost Of course.
10 19:15:00 auchter danke
10 19:15:00 tommost Huh?
10 19:16:00 Morasique thanks in german. i'm like a help-bot
10 19:21:00 tommost I'm off.
10 19:40:00 tommost They were all one when I got there.
10 19:40:00 tommost *on
10 19:40:00 tommost So I didn't have to turn any on except freya.
10 19:40:00 tommost (You should really find a power cable that sticks more firmly, auchter.)
10 19:42:00 auchter tommost: thanks
10 19:43:00 tommost No problem.
10 19:43:00 tommost I'm really not sure what's going on with project.rhitrobotics.org, though.'
10 21:46:00 auchter http://www.linear.com/pc/downloadDocument.do?navId=H0,C1,C1003,C1142,C1114,P1134,D4162
10 21:46:00 auchter perhaps the best flowchart i've seen in an application note
10 21:46:00 tommost Hehe.
10 22:26:00 zumbrujm auchter: that is good
10 22:30:00 auchter yeah, i appreciated it, especially since i do not have to design a switching reg
10 22:40:00 auchter someone (jon, brian) should start researching CAN interfaces for the computer, or make one (MCP2551 + MCP2515 + microcontroller of your choice)
10 22:41:00 tommost You should e-mail this to them.
10 22:41:00 auchter i like shouting it out in the open where there's a chance that they'll hear
10 22:41:00 tommost Along with an explanation of your plans.
10 22:41:00 auchter but yes, i'll send an email
10 22:42:00 auchter plans? what plans?
10 22:42:00 auchter we're on plan 9 now, it's madness really
10 22:44:00 auchter does the robotics mailing list have archives?
10 22:44:00 tommost Yes.
10 22:44:00 tommost I think.
10 22:44:00 auchter hm, we should start spamming that very often
10 22:46:00 tommost They appear to be private.
10 22:47:00 tommost Plus mailman scrubs GPG signatures :(
10 22:47:00 auchter is that a good thing?
10 22:47:00 tommost It's an observation.
10 22:47:00 auchter i see... we should really host our own mailserver/lists again once the server comes back from oblivion
10 22:47:00 tommost Yeah.
10 22:47:00 auchter (and stays away from its grasp)
10 23:53:00 tommost Well, that was odd.
10 23:53:00 tommost My laptop went crazy slow.
10 23:54:00 tommost Graphically.
10 23:54:00 tommost By the time it got so bad that I had to restart I had killed almost every possible user-space cause.
10 23:54:00 tommost Leaving Firefox (which htop reported as not using much of any CPU) and the ATI graphics drivers as likely causes.
10 23:54:00 tommost Obviously, I blame ATI.
11 00:13:00 Morasique it's because you're not using compiz
11 00:13:00 tommost Yeah.
11 00:13:00 tommost ATI hates me for not being a user of expensive graphics card hardware.
11 00:14:00 tommost I desperately miss full-screen zoom. :(
11 00:15:00 Morasique i never use that, actually
11 00:16:00 tommost It allows you to make flash movies full screen without sacrificing framerates.
11 00:16:00 tommost This is beautiful.
11 00:16:00 Morasique :)
11 00:16:00 tommost (Or terribly pixellated, but whatever.)
11 00:18:00 tommost Ah, that's better.
11 00:18:00 tommost Hello Compiz.
11 01:12:00 Morasique awesome. i made an xchat plugin that catches if somebody says a sed regexp and shows the last thing they said with the regexp applied to it
11 09:32:00 Morasique_work hmm. i just segfaulted gcc
11 10:14:00 Morasique_work from rose webmail: "Access to the following potentially unsafe attachments has been blocked: test.exe"
11 10:14:00 Morasique_work ...wha? you can't access attached exes at all?
11 10:18:00 Morasique_work i just installed thunderbird solely to gain access to my unsafe attachment. computers make me sad sometimes
11 10:36:00 andy753421 wow, I just segfaulted 'sleep'
11 10:36:00 andy753421 'sleep 100 & kill -11 $!' ...
11 11:13:00 Morasique_work well, I'd hoped it was implied I didn't manually segfault it, I made it crash parsing my code, which is bad in a couple ways
11 17:41:00 auchter http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9180K600&show_article=1
11 17:42:00 auchter mmm... perl...
11 17:42:00 Morasique i'm looking at that right now, i completely don't get it
11 17:42:00 auchter someone apparently tried to print a hash reference
11 17:42:00 Morasique oh, ok, so it's a mistake on the page?
11 17:42:00 Morasique i thought it was a clever pun title i wasn't getting
11 17:42:00 auchter yes
11 18:52:00 Morasique http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTi5MZ994Ms
11 18:52:00 Morasique let's see awesome do that
11 18:53:00 auchter andy753421: re: what you're talking about in #plan9, i had some hackish solution in mk that did something like that since sdcc requires arguments in a certain order... i'm interested to see what they come up with
11 18:54:00 andy753421 auchter: trying to create crazy lists of prereqs :)
11 19:03:00 Morasique the x86 installer for gentoo is 57mb
11 19:03:00 Morasique i'm suspicious
11 19:04:00 auchter Morasique: why?
11 19:05:00 octavious it contains, gcc + glibc + binutils + kernel + bash + openssh + screen
11 19:05:00 auchter if you like bloat, you could install gentoo from the ubuntu boot disk
11 19:06:00 auchter yeah, excepting p9p, what more could you need?
11 19:06:00 andy753421 octavious: + vim
11 19:06:00 auchter until you chroot...
11 19:06:00 octavious oh yes. i have forgotten...busybox i think as well
11 19:08:00 auchter oh, it's tied between gentoo and ubunutu users here... (assuming luglog runs gentoo, counting povilusr* as 1, and assuming rr72 uses ubuntu)
11 19:09:00 Morasique auchter: it's nice to see you've evaluated luglog and rr72 and decided their competency levels
11 19:09:00 Morasique and i do like bloat, it makes me happy :)
11 19:10:00 auchter well, download that ubuntu dvd and start the gentoo install!
11 19:10:00 Morasique woo!
11 19:11:00 andy753421 cd /usr/portage && for i in $(ls -d */*); do emerge $i; done
11 19:11:00 andy753421 that should fix it
11 19:11:00 Morasique thanks
11 19:15:00 andy753421 auchter: here's what I'm doing:
11 19:15:00 andy753421 %.out: `{ls *.in}
11 19:15:00 andy753421 cat `{ls *.in | sed /$stem.in/d} > $target
11 19:17:00 auchter UOBJ = `{echo $MAIN.o $OBJ | sed 's/\w*main\.o\w*/ /g'}
11 19:17:00 auchter that's what i was doing; it worked alright, but looks horrible
11 19:18:00 andy753421 yea, mine doesn't actually work correctly since it requires 1.in to be a prereq of 1.out, which it's not
11 19:19:00 andy753421 even thought that 1.in not being needed for 1.out doesn't make any sense ;)
11 19:19:00 auchter well, sometimes you just need to abandon mk, sad as it may be
11 19:19:00 andy753421 hehe, well, i haven't come up with anything better yet :)
11 19:20:00 auchter my instinct (which i've been trying to get over, but has been more reinforced since i started working) is to just use per
11 19:20:00 auchter l
11 19:20:00 andy753421 it'd be nice of $stem got passed into the right rule, like it does for the recipe, but my guess is that the `{}'s for rules get substituted right at the beginning
11 19:21:00 auchter i think that stuff is covered in one of the mk papers...
11 19:21:00 auchter but i can't recall stuff like that off the top of my head
11 19:21:00 andy753421 yea, i'm using ruby for the actual coding, but mk is nice for automating file generation
11 19:22:00 andy753421 especially since it takes about a half hour to regenerate the databases :)
11 19:23:00 auchter that is quite a while... i usually take up the time waiting for stuff to build by drinking coffee.
11 19:24:00 andy753421 yea, i was thinking about installing mysql to see if it was faster but sqlite is so much easier to deal with
11 19:24:00 auchter i have to admit to being inexperienced with both
11 19:24:00 auchter i've never really needed databases, nor have they interested me much
11 19:33:00 auchter hm, for some reason i just installed clisp... i can see myself liking this...
11 20:08:00 octavious damn you auchter
11 20:08:00 auchter octavious: hm?
11 20:08:00 octavious i wiki'd clisp...and 45 minutes finished on the internal representation of arbitrary precision floating point numbers in libgmp
11 20:09:00 octavious later*
11 20:09:00 auchter haha, don't blame me, blame wikipedia
11 20:09:00 auchter on a sidenote: i hate libgmp
11 20:10:00 octavious any particular reason?
11 20:10:00 octavious sounds too much like GIMP and you hate GIMP?
11 20:10:00 auchter no, it's just a pain to work with
11 20:10:00 auchter very verbose, the function arguments are annoying, etc.
11 20:20:00 zumbruj1 all: is python useful/easy to use
11 20:20:00 zumbruj1 ?
11 20:28:00 auchter gah, why is plan9.phire.org always down?
11 23:37:00 kleinjt who turned off my computer :/
11 23:37:00 jboticsource btw kleinjt
11 23:37:00 jboticsource i have your sun glasses
11 23:38:00 kleinjt ok, uh.. feel free to use 'em, but I'll want them back next year
11 23:38:00 kleinjt I'll trade you some of my roommates stuff that he left behind
11 23:39:00 jboticsource cool
11 23:40:00 kleinjt rhitrobotics.org seems down
11 23:40:00 kleinjt also, I can't IRC at work...
11 23:41:00 kleinjt although, using ssh to remotely access a computer with IRC on it does not seem to be against the usage policy
12 07:48:00 auchter [mauchter ~]$ unlink /usr/lib/java/
12 07:48:00 auchter unlink: cannot unlink `/usr/lib/java/': Not a directory
12 07:48:00 auchter weird error to get instead of permission denied...
12 11:35:00 Morasique NO! digg is down. what the heck am i supposed to do with my time
12 12:32:00 Morasique "repeat can't intuit what you inserted before auto-fill clobbered it, sorry"
12 12:32:00 Morasique best error ever
12 14:36:00 Morasique the last example in this reminds me of about half the all-campus e-mails we get: http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/archive/2008/06/12/8592385.aspx
12 16:08:00 andy753421 http://www.kokuyo.co.jp/english/
12 16:08:00 andy753421 apparently they have laser rangefinders that are smaller and cheaper
12 16:09:00 andy753421 well, not /cheap/ but cheaper than SICK
12 16:17:00 auchter hm, i'll take a look into those
12 16:18:00 auchter on another note, acme is now my favorite ide
12 16:21:00 auchter acmeevent(1) and acme.rc(1) make life so good
12 16:22:00 auchter eclipse was being pure evil; i have a directory with ~50 subdirectories, each is a java program that runs on a printer
12 16:22:00 auchter under each of those subdirectories is the whole ridiculous com/.../.../... structure that java loves so much
12 16:23:00 auchter well, apparently eclipse has problems when that com is not the top of the java project
12 16:23:00 auchter (er, when the build path doesn't match the package name)
12 16:24:00 auchter so, i wrote a nice script using acmeevent(1) and acme.rc(1) to go through, display the programs on each line of a new acme window as: [open] [build] [flash] <program name>
12 16:25:00 auchter it was easy, works beautifully (unlike eclipse), displays the relevant java files without making me go through 10 subdirectories (unlike eclipse) and doesn't pop up with an error every time i open a new program that's not its own java project (unlike eclipse)
12 16:40:00 auchter ah, i should have probably mentioned that right clicking on [build] builds the code, [flash] flashes the code, etc.
12 16:40:00 auchter in all, acme rocks.
12 17:17:00 rr72 Morasiqu2~ i use ubuntu yes, i use windows yes, i use SuSE yes
12 17:17:00 rr72 i prefer ubuntu true
12 17:17:00 rr72 i have used fedora and gentoo and mandriva
12 17:18:00 Morasique rr72: why are you telling me? auchter was the one who said you used ubuntu
12 17:18:00 rr72 oopd my bad
12 17:18:00 rr72 oopd is the oops daemon ;)
12 17:19:00 rr72 you lit my name after him
12 17:19:00 rr72 thats why i directed that to you
12 17:19:00 Morasique i see
12 17:28:00 tommost zumbruj1: Yes, both.
12 17:58:00 auchter tommost: plan9 box is down again...
12 17:58:00 tommost sighs
12 17:58:00 auchter i'm blaming either the power cord or network cable
12 17:58:00 auchter both seem to come unplugged often without any prompting
12 17:59:00 Morasique it's probably a plan9 thing. it causes unplugged cables
12 17:59:00 Morasique ....it's a feature
12 17:59:00 tommost I switched to a different network cable that wasn't busted the last time I restarted it.
12 17:59:00 tommost So that shouldn't pop out.
12 17:59:00 auchter hm, perhaps it was the power outage?
12 18:00:00 tommost Maybe.
12 18:00:00 auchter if i recall, enter needs to be pressed at some point (mounting root?)
12 18:00:00 auchter i should fix that.
12 18:00:00 tommost Definitely.
12 18:01:00 auchter well, let me know next time you get to the lab and start it up again
12 18:02:00 tommost Okay.
12 18:08:00 Morasique solution: put something heavy on the enter key
12 18:08:00 tommost Morasique: There's no keyboard.
12 18:08:00 Morasique well fail
12 18:14:00 auchter "There is no cat."
12 20:08:00 andy753421 :( I finally get my MAC address registered and their DNS server is still giving out crap addresses
12 20:08:00 andy753421 on the bright side of things, they had Inferno listed as one of the Operating Systems options :)
12 20:11:00 Morasique wow, does mac registration work again?
12 20:11:00 Morasique it's only been down for like a year and a half
12 20:11:00 tommost I don't think he's talking about Rose.
12 20:11:00 tommost And it's always worked fine for me.
12 20:12:00 auchter tommost: voodoo, i say.
12 20:12:00 tommost Ogadaboogada!
12 20:12:00 Morasique tommost: i don't know what secret you're using, but http://www.rose-hulman.edu/TSC/tools/ says "currently unavailable" and http://dna.rose-hulman.edu/ gives a 403 error
12 20:13:00 Morasique that's how it's been since at least the beginning of last summer, i think earlier
12 20:13:00 auchter Morasique: i've seen him use it.
12 20:13:00 tommost It works when your MAC address is unregistered.
12 20:13:00 Morasique lies
12 20:13:00 auchter Morasique: he just goes to dna.rose-hulman.edu, and it works
12 20:13:00 tommost I don't even do that.
12 20:13:00 auchter that's how we got the plan9 box going
12 20:13:00 tommost It automatically redirects me.
12 20:13:00 Morasique i thought people had problems with that too, i haven't had to do it though
12 20:14:00 auchter you don't have to register to get online in the CS dept. either
12 20:17:00 auchter and i haven't come across anyone here who's even heard of plan9, let alone inferno
12 20:20:00 Morasique i've heard of it. sadly
12 21:23:00 andy753421 haha, wikipedia's 'Media bias' page is marked as having the neutrality of it disputed :)
12 21:24:00 tommost Hehe.
12 21:28:00 auchter just get your news from a variety of sources, and believe none of it
12 21:28:00 tommost Just watch Moyers.
12 21:39:00 auchter http://www.rose-hulman.edu/news/articles/Davidson-ANGEL08.htm
12 21:39:00 auchter i laughed at several points in that article, then became depressed
12 21:41:00 auchter the praising of 'openness' was particularly amusing
12 21:41:00 tommost Indeed.
12 22:24:00 Morasique my god, they gave him an award for foisting that travesty upon us
12 22:24:00 Morasique wow, that openness paragraph is terrible. i may e-mail him and demand an explanation
12 22:25:00 tommost Be sure to mention how much of a pain Angel is to Greasemonkey.
12 22:25:00 andy753421 Morasique: ANGEL gave him an award, so that we're not even more likely to not switch away from it
12 22:25:00 andy753421 /not/now/g
12 22:25:00 andy753421 i guess g doesn't matter :/
12 22:26:00 Morasique way to leave out the s so my fancy plugin didn't catch it
12 22:26:00 Morasique although i suspect the g would've broken it anyway
12 22:26:00 Morasique i should work on that
12 22:26:00 andy753421 /Morasique/d
12 22:27:00 tommost How does your plugin work?
12 22:27:00 Morasique looks for the ^s//$ pattern
12 22:28:00 Morasique i forgot about g at the end, and i just realized it replaces all occurrences instead of just the first
12 22:28:00 Morasique i fail at regexp
12 22:28:00 tommost And then how does it work? What is it written in?
12 22:28:00 Morasique python. it's an xchat plugin
12 22:28:00 tommost :(
12 22:28:00 tommost I was hoping it was a shell script or something.
12 22:28:00 Morasique um. you like python
12 22:29:00 Morasique oh. that would be odd :)
12 22:29:00 tommost Python's regexp support doesn't allow me to do mischievous things to you. It's too sane.
12 22:29:00 Morasique sorry :'(
12 22:30:00 Morasique i thought about taking the expression and running it as a shell command as root, but i was too lazy to script it
12 22:30:00 andy753421 Morasique: you should post a copy of it somewhere
12 22:32:00 Morasique http://dpaste.com/56358/
12 22:32:00 tommost Win for dpaste!
12 22:32:00 Morasique i tried that rafb one everyone seems to like but it was taking too long to load
12 22:33:00 Morasique s/$/. be amazed!/
12 22:33:00 Morasique awesome
12 22:34:00 Morasique http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mrozekma/plugin.png
12 22:34:00 tommost Nice.
12 22:34:00 tommost It should highlight the change.
12 22:35:00 Morasique it shows a ! for your op symbol, i thought that was sufficient :). i might change it
12 22:40:00 tommost Shouldn't you have stronger error handling for malformed regexps?
12 22:40:00 Morasique you mean stronger than none at all? probably
12 22:41:00 Morasique i wrote that last night and stopped working and congratulated myself the moment it parsed one regexp correctly
12 22:41:00 tommost s/(?<n't) / forget/
12 22:41:00 auchter s/./A/g
12 22:42:00 Morasique auchter: no g at the end
12 22:42:00 auchter damn.
12 22:42:00 Morasique and yeah, tommost's made python angry
12 22:42:00 Morasique sre_constants.error: syntax error
12 22:42:00 andy753421 s/./\1/
12 22:42:00 Morasique whatever that means
12 22:43:00 Morasique sre_constants.error: invalid group reference
12 22:43:00 auchter s/(.)/\1/
12 22:43:00 Morasique that matched but just showed the same thing again
12 22:43:00 tommost s/(?<n't )/\b\s/
12 22:43:00 Morasique auchter> damn. ((s/(.)/\1/))
12 22:43:00 Morasique tommost: syntax error. also, you guys need a new hobby
12 22:43:00 auchter well, damn.
12 22:43:00 auchter s/(.)/\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1/
12 22:43:00 Morasique :D
12 22:44:00 Morasique auchter> wwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, dddddddddddddddddddaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaammmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn................... ((s/(.)/\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1/))
12 22:44:00 andy753421 s/./AAAAAAAAAAAA/
12 22:44:00 andy753421 s/./AAAAAAAAAAAA/
12 22:44:00 Morasique s/(.?)/\1/
12 22:44:00 andy753421 s/./AAAAAAAAAAAA/
12 22:44:00 andy753421 s/./AAAAAAAAAAAA/
12 22:44:00 andy753421 s/./AAAAAAAAAAAA/
12 22:44:00 andy753421 s/./AAAAAAAAAAAA/
12 22:44:00 Morasique oddly, that's not matching at all
12 22:44:00 andy753421 yay exponential increases!
12 22:44:00 auchter muahaha
12 22:44:00 auchter s/(.)/\1{9000}/
12 22:45:00 Morasique apparently python doesn't support that: auchter> m{9000}u{9000}a{9000}h{9000}a{9000}h{9000}a{9000} ((s/(.)/\1{9000}/))
12 22:45:00 Morasique or i need a flag or something
12 22:45:00 auchter i'm not even sure if that was correct
12 22:45:00 Morasique oh, i guess not, that's only for matching, not replacing
12 22:46:00 auchter yeah, i had a feeling
12 22:47:00 auchter i'd like to think i was responsible for that quite
12 22:47:00 auchter s/$//
12 22:47:00 Morasique :D i tried something in #morasique that increased exponentially and it crashed xchat
12 22:48:00 auchter haha
12 22:49:00 auchter s/.*/\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1/
12 22:49:00 Morasique forgot the group again
12 22:49:00 auchter oh, right
12 22:49:00 auchter s/(.*)/\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1\1
12 22:50:00 Morasique forgot the trailing / :)
12 22:50:00 Morasique i could just hit ctrl+q if that would help
12 22:50:00 auchter uh, no i didn't
12 22:50:00 Morasique oh. it's missing. i think it truncated your output, it ends with \1\
12 22:51:00 auchter ah, probably
12 22:51:00 andy753421 s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:51:00 andy753421 s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:51:00 andy753421 s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:51:00 andy753421 s/./\n/
12 22:51:00 Blazeix Hmm. I just came back to my computer and I though my screen had gone glitchy.
12 22:51:00 Blazeix But it was just auchter
12 22:51:00 Morasique yeah, they're trying to crash my xchat session. strangely it's not working
12 22:51:00 Morasique andy753421's isn't matching at all and i have no idea why
12 22:52:00 auchter oh, that's what you think
12 22:52:00 Morasique oh, because he hasn't said anything yet
12 22:52:00 andy753421 booo
12 22:52:00 Morasique besides regular expressions
12 22:52:00 andy753421 s/./abc/
12 22:52:00 Morasique that worked
12 22:52:00 andy753421 BOOOO
12 22:52:00 andy753421 s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:52:00 andy753421 s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:52:00 andy753421 s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:52:00 andy753421 s/./\n/
12 22:52:00 Blazeix haha
12 22:52:00 auchter haha.
12 22:52:00 auchter yay python!
12 22:52:00 Morasique :D a bunch of gnome alerts popped up right as it closed
12 22:53:00 auchter s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:53:00 auchter s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:53:00 auchter s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:53:00 auchter s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:53:00 auchter s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:53:00 Morasique i disabled the plugin, btw. i'll have to work on it more :)
12 22:53:00 auchter s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:53:00 auchter s/./iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii/
12 22:53:00 Blazeix ohhh
12 22:53:00 Morasique glares at auchter
12 22:53:00 Morasique /exec (command) will run a command in the shell and show the output, i was hoping that was a vulnerability but sadly emit_print just outputs what you pass it, it doesn't run it
12 22:59:00 andy753421 i like how the channel immediately died once we could no longer break Morasique's xchat
12 23:00:00 Morasique it was touching how everyone came together to destroy me
12 23:00:00 Morasique nice group bonding experience
12 23:00:00 tommost hugs you
12 23:01:00 Morasique andy753421's character count on logview jumped 500 during that, and auchter's jumped 1500
12 23:01:00 tommost Booo.
12 23:01:00 tommost *BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.
12 23:01:00 tommost ++
12 23:02:00 andy753421 it's a good thing luglog doens't use regexes, otherwise the hard disk might be full :P
12 23:02:00 Morasique :)
12 23:12:00 Blazeix Does anybody know how to enable extended hint mode in vimperator 1.1?
12 23:16:00 auchter it's not ;?
12 23:16:00 Morasique this may sound suspicious, but first you have to uninstall it
12 23:16:00 Morasique then you need to open emacs
12 23:16:00 Morasique and use it forever
12 23:17:00 crr why don't you just give him a shotgun and tell him to shoot himself?
12 23:20:00 Morasique he's already dead inside, he uses vim
12 23:20:00 auchter crr must have the highest signal to noise ratio of anyone here
12 23:21:00 tommost Indeed.
12 23:21:00 tommost crr: What editor should I use?
12 23:21:00 crr some editor that matches /vi/
12 23:21:00 Morasique sigh
12 23:22:00 auchter tommost: acme!
12 23:22:00 Morasique ah, something we can all agree to hate
12 23:22:00 Morasique thanks for unifying us auchter
12 23:22:00 tommost Indeed.
12 23:22:00 auchter you've not even tried it
12 23:22:00 tommost By "editor" I meant something that means I use the mouse *less*, not *more*.
12 23:22:00 Morasique s/more/exclusively/
12 23:23:00 auchter you can mount acme and write shell scripts to control it
12 23:23:00 tommost crr: I had such high hopes for your advice.
12 23:23:00 auchter that's what i'm doing
12 23:23:00 crr I'm sorry to have to be honest with you tommost
12 23:23:00 tommost :'(
12 23:23:00 Morasique tommost: use emacs, you'll love it
12 23:23:00 tommost Morasique: I have determined that emacs' keybindings are crap.
12 23:24:00 tommost everyone else: I have determined that vi's keybindings are crap.
12 23:24:00 Morasique tommost: you're confused. also, rebind them
12 23:24:00 Morasique in either case
12 23:24:00 tommost So which one is better for that?
12 23:25:00 Morasique i imagine it's really simple in either
12 23:25:00 Morasique it's one command in emacs, i don't know in vim
12 23:25:00 tommost The other reason I've ruled out emacs is because it doesn't have a decent X version.
12 23:25:00 crr eh?
12 23:25:00 tommost Have you seen it's fonts?
12 23:26:00 tommost They're miserable.
12 23:26:00 Morasique i like the terminal version
12 23:26:00 crr I do believe you can configure those, tommost
12 23:26:00 Morasique you can, M-x customize-face
12 23:26:00 tommost My understanding was that the next version of emacs would have antialiasing support.
12 23:26:00 tommost But that the current version doesn't.
12 23:26:00 tommost That is an epic failure in 2008.
12 23:29:00 Morasique are you sure it doesn't? i found a blog post from 2006 talking about how it does
12 23:29:00 Morasique i don't use the x version so i have no idea
12 23:29:00 tommost It didn't when I tried it.
12 23:30:00 tommost And didn't Yegge talk about it in his recent post on emacs?
12 23:30:00 Morasique i don't recall, possibly
12 23:31:00 Morasique you could just use the terminal version like everyone else :)
12 23:31:00 tommost Does it support drag and drop?
12 23:31:00 crr I must admit, I'm really surprised to hear that that matters to you
12 23:31:00 Morasique drag and drop what?
12 23:31:00 tommost Text.
12 23:31:00 Morasique crr: have you met tommost? he lives for stuff like that
12 23:32:00 Morasique tommost: no. although if you're using the mouse you're probably doing something wrong
12 23:32:00 tommost And isn't emacs' undo/redo wacky?
12 23:32:00 crr he'll come around in good time; I'm sure
12 23:32:00 Morasique hey, i like emacs' undo/redo. there's an elisp script to make it like vim if you feel the need
12 23:32:00 tommost Like vim?
12 23:33:00 Morasique well, like other programs i guess
12 23:33:00 crr I never use the mouse in vim either
12 23:33:00 tommost Oh, okay.
12 23:33:00 Morasique with separate undo/redo keys
12 23:33:00 crr the only reason I use the graphical vim at all is because then fluxbox will tab the windows for me
12 23:33:00 Morasique i used to use graphical emacs until i realized i never touched the mouse and i have the menu and toolbars disabled, so there was no point
12 23:33:00 Morasique s/have/had/
12 23:35:00 Morasique you should try emacs or vim or both, i think everyone loves one of them once they've used them long enough
12 23:36:00 andy753421 crr: vim has tabs built in :P
12 23:36:00 crr yeah, in all honesty I'd probably be fine with emacs but I'd need to learn it first
12 23:36:00 crr it does but they suck
12 23:37:00 Morasique tabs are for people with poor buffer management :)
12 23:37:00 Morasique or whatever the heck you vim people call them
12 23:37:00 Morasique i used to know the term
12 23:37:00 andy753421 Morasique: yea they're still buffers
12 23:37:00 crr umm ... "buffers" is the term you want
12 23:37:00 Morasique i thought there was another name
12 23:37:00 Morasique maybe i'm thinking of something else
12 23:37:00 andy753421 there's windows and buffers
12 23:38:00 Morasique does vim have registers?
12 23:38:00 Morasique i think i was thinking registers, although that's obviously something different
12 23:38:00 andy753421 Morasique: yes, that's where you store things
12 23:38:00 Morasique yeah, that's what i was thinking of
12 23:38:00 Morasique i wish emacs called them something else so i could criticize it. oh well
12 23:39:00 tommost So how can I bind vi's keys so that I don't have to type a colon all the time?
12 23:40:00 Morasique i thought the colon was just for running commands by name
12 23:40:00 Morasique like M-x in emacs
12 23:40:00 andy753421 ^O
12 23:40:00 andy753421 tommost: what do you want to do without having to type a colon?
12 23:40:00 tommost q
12 23:40:00 andy753421 ZZ
12 23:40:00 Morasique ah, my favorite vim action
12 23:40:00 tommost And, well, every other action.
12 23:41:00 Morasique oh, ZZ is cool. that's handy
12 23:41:00 tommost I hate typing a colon; it's really awkward.
12 23:41:00 andy753421 (ZZ = save and quit, ZQ = dont save and quit)
12 23:41:00 Morasique nice
12 23:42:00 tommost So if there are decent keybindings for things, why does everything tell you to use the crappy colon notation?
12 23:42:00 Morasique i was just thinking that, that's weird
12 23:42:00 andy753421 because the colon notation is more powerful
12 23:43:00 tommost Oooooo.... power in a crappy wrapper.
12 23:43:00 andy753421 :q, :q!, :wq, :wqall, :wqall!, :qall!, etc
12 23:43:00 tommost Can I remap ":" to Shift-Space?
12 23:43:00 Morasique wow. that is many combinations
12 23:43:00 Morasique tommost: i'm pretty sure you can map anything to anything in both
12 23:44:00 andy753421 Shift-space doesn't exist
12 23:44:00 Morasique you don't like shift+; but you like shift+space? they're like the same distance
12 23:44:00 tommost One doesn't involve my right pinky.
12 23:44:00 Morasique er. what do you hit shift with
12 23:44:00 tommost I barely use the right shift key at all, BTW.
12 23:44:00 Morasique oh. i do shift space with right shift, right thumb and pinky
12 23:45:00 Morasique but yeah, this is moot, as andy753421 helpfully pointed out that's not a real keystroke :)
12 23:45:00 tommost It should be.
12 23:45:00 Morasique C-SPC ftw
12 23:45:00 tommost Because it's convenient.
12 23:48:00 Morasique also, there's a suspicious amount of vim talk for somebody that's going to be using emacs
12 23:48:00 Morasique glares suspiciously
12 23:49:00 crr he's going to use emacs ... for a couple of minutes, figure out he's wasting is time, and move to a real edit
12 23:49:00 tommost I am impressed by the more-rational default keybindings of Vim.
12 23:49:00 Morasique sigh :(
12 23:49:00 tommost Seriously, emacs' are unforgivable.
12 23:50:00 crr in all serious, you should just pick one and learn it
12 23:50:00 andy753421 and vim has ':help holy-grail'
12 23:50:00 crr neither are intended to be easy - they're aimed to be efficient once you're experienced with them
12 23:50:00 tommost And how do I do that without typing a colon?
12 23:50:00 andy753421 :map <Space> :
12 23:51:00 tommost GAAAHHH!!! It can't be avoided!
12 23:51:00 Morasique andy753421: emacs has C-x k to find out what a keybinding does and C-x f to find out what a function does
12 23:51:00 Morasique tommost: it's one time, do you not have : on your keyboard?
12 23:51:00 Morasique er. C-h for both of those instead of C-x. i fail
12 23:52:00 crr he realized that I put the contact explosive under his ":" key as a practical joke
12 23:52:00 Morasique crr: good plan
12 23:53:00 crr what he has yet to realize is that I also put some under the control key
12 23:53:00 crr but once he tries emacs ...
12 23:53:00 Morasique diabolical
12 23:53:00 andy753421 and I put some under the rest of the keys, just for good measure
12 23:54:00 tommost Thank god for my external Bluetooth keyboard.
12 23:56:00 crr swindler!
12 23:56:00 Morasique thus leaving no excuse not to try a new editor
12 23:57:00 tommost I need to remap hjkl.
12 23:57:00 andy753421 What!
12 23:57:00 Morasique i assume those are directions in vim
12 23:58:00 tommost They mess with my finger-memory from my MobilePro 780's keyboard. They're in the wrong order.
12 23:58:00 andy753421 Heretic!
12 23:58:00 crr you'd be right
12 23:58:00 Morasique emacs has the same thing with control attached, i don't understand that. why don't people like the arrow keys?
12 23:58:00 tommost They're awkward.
12 23:59:00 andy753421 because you have to move your hand like 5 inches
12 23:59:00 andy753421 as opposed to 0
13 00:00:00 Morasique :D that really slows people down?
13 00:00:00 andy753421 um, yes
13 00:01:00 Morasique it takes about 0 seconds to move your hand to the arrow keys, they're on a dedicated section of the keyboard
13 00:01:00 tommost I'm liking the idea of vim better than emacs at the moment. At least I can remember how to close it.
13 00:01:00 Morasique tommost: C-x C-c, stop the hate
13 00:02:00 andy753421 all the movement commands are definitely one of my favorite things about vim
13 00:02:00 Morasique that's everyone's favorite thing about vim, it's the main reason to use it over emacs
13 00:02:00 Morasique emacs has all the same functions, but the bindings are way more complicated
13 00:03:00 andy753421 um, exactly?
13 00:03:00 Morasique well, i don't find it useful at all, i'm saying it's what separates vim and emacs users
13 00:03:00 Morasique i don't have a need to transpose the third and seventh words of a line or some nonsense, i never do it
13 00:04:00 tommost I thought that's what emacs was good at?
13 00:04:00 andy753421 I never needed to back when I used notepad either
13 00:04:00 tommost How do I rewrap a paragraph in vim?
13 00:04:00 andy753421 tommost: gq for text formatting, = for source code formatting
13 00:05:00 Morasique M-q in emacs. for when you switch
13 00:06:00 andy753421 does emacs support text objects as well as vim?
13 00:06:00 Morasique what are text objects?
13 00:06:00 andy753421 e.g. [count]command[(text_object|movement)] type things
13 00:07:00 Morasique that didn't tell me what text objects are :). it has [count] command through the universal argument, i don't know what that last part meant
13 00:07:00 andy753421 gqap = formatting /A/ /P/aragraph, gqG = format to the end of the file, 3gqap = format 3 paragraphs, etc
13 00:08:00 Morasique oh, like words, paragraphs, sentences?
13 00:08:00 Morasique it has different commands usually, like upcase-word, upcase-paragraph, upcase-line, that sort of thing. i don't do that much either so i don't really know about it
13 00:09:00 tommost Does vim have any concept of sentences? This is a feature of emacs' that I find attractive.
13 00:09:00 andy753421 tommost: Yes, what do you want to do with them?
13 00:09:00 tommost For starters, delete them.
13 00:09:00 tommost Then navigate by sentence.
13 00:09:00 Morasique M-k ftw
13 00:09:00 andy753421 () move to beginning/end of a sentance, 's' is the text object for a sentance, (so, das deletes a sentence)
13 00:10:00 Morasique M-a/M-e. i'm still under the delusion you're going to switch
13 00:11:00 tommost Morasique: Sorry, I go where the anti-aliasing is.
13 00:11:00 andy753421 ':help text-objects' for a list of them, you might enjoy 't' which stands for a html/xml tag
13 00:11:00 Morasique it's so very depressing that that broke the tie for you
13 00:12:00 tommost If it helps, I'm likely to totally remap the keys before I even learn the defaults.
13 00:12:00 crr I would strongly suggest *not* doing that, but you can if you really want to
13 00:12:00 andy753421 agrees with crr
13 00:12:00 tommost Why not?
13 00:12:00 Morasique i make an effort to learn the defaults if i can
13 00:12:00 Morasique it's a pain ever using another installation or someone else's machine
13 00:13:00 tommost Yeah.
13 00:13:00 crr exactly
13 00:13:00 andy753421 the fact that the vi defaults have stuck around for 35 years is a decent indication they they're not that bad
13 00:13:00 tommost In that case I'll use gedit!
13 00:13:00 tommost andy753421: Haven't emacs' as well?
13 00:13:00 tommost Because they're obviously pretty awful.
13 00:14:00 Morasique that was how emacs started, everyone made their own extensions to teco until they couldn't use each other's configurations anymore, emacs was supposed to unify them all
13 00:14:00 andy753421 tommost: not quite as long, but i imagine that for someone who likes using Ctrl/Alt/Meta they're not that bad either
13 00:14:00 Morasique it's rather you like having different modes or having different modifier keys
13 00:14:00 Morasique i hate modes with a passion
13 00:14:00 Morasique whereas modifier keys are my friends
13 00:15:00 andy753421 yea, that's the main distinction, they're both going to me 'local maximums' if you want to talk in math terms
13 00:15:00 Morasique it's safe to assume we always do
13 00:16:00 andy753421 Morasique: you seem to be unaware of my hatred for math..
13 00:16:00 Morasique deep down you love it
13 00:16:00 Morasique i can tell
13 00:16:00 Morasique i used the word totient at work today, i practically felt like a mathematician
13 00:16:00 tommost I'd suggest that emacs' modifier support is crappy because it doesn't make use of shift.
13 00:16:00 tommost Which is the easiest modifier to hit.
13 00:16:00 Morasique er. emacs uses shift
13 00:16:00 Morasique i suppose not as much
13 00:16:00 andy753421 Morasique: well, i guess that's true, i like math, but i hate mathematicians
13 09:14:00 Morasique I don't know what happened, but I got disconnected as Morasique_work like a day ago and for some reason it still says I'm connected, apparently that nick is permanently in use
13 09:36:00 Morasique awesome. emacs has a hex editing mode. take that vim
13 10:34:00 andy753421 Morasique: following UNIX's philosophy of one program for one job, vim come with a program (xxd) that converts files to and from hex that can be used as a filter from within vim
13 11:31:00 Morasique emacs can print to a printer. take that vim
13 11:31:00 Morasique i think that's the first time i've ever printed in emacs, which is slightly sad
13 11:32:00 andy753421 Morasique: :help hardcopy.. or :%!lp
13 11:34:00 Morasique damn. the war continues
13 11:34:00 Morasique also, that last thing looks like you just pounded on the keyboard
13 11:34:00 Morasique maybe it's vim's likeness to perl that makes me hate it so
13 11:35:00 andy753421 % = all lines, ! = filter through external program, lp = 'line printer'
13 11:35:00 Morasique ah. that's suspiciously not terrible
13 11:39:00 andy753421 pretty much all ex commands take a range, which is cool because you can do :5,10!lp to print lines 5..10, i imagine emacs can do the same thing
13 11:39:00 Morasique wow. i tried to do :help hardcopy on vim and got like 4 errors. that was odd
13 11:39:00 Morasique s/vim/addiator/
13 11:41:00 andy753421 yea, addiator fails, (source /scratch/apps/vim/profile.env)
13 16:31:00 auchter tommost: as for apparently deciding on vim because it has anti-aliased fonts, why not just use a terminal emulator with anti-aliased fonts?
13 16:31:00 auchter then you could use vim/emacs/what-have-you in all their anti-aliased-cycle-wasting glory
13 16:33:00 auchter also, i have yet to meet anyone sane who uses gvim under linux...
13 16:33:00 Morasique i think tommost should use vim just so there's something him and auchter can like together
13 16:34:00 auchter he uses awesome, which is similar enough to dwm and dissimilar enough to compiz that i can like it
13 16:36:00 andy753421 yea, you can't CTRL-Z gvim, therefore it's useless
13 16:36:00 andy753421 except when you're giving a presentation and you need to make the font size 36pt
13 16:37:00 andy753421 speaking of which, why can't I change the font size on urxvt?
13 16:37:00 auchter andy753421: speaking of which, i haven't figured out how to do that on the fly
13 16:37:00 auchter i haven't tried very hard looking, though
13 16:38:00 andy753421 xterm is clearly superior urxvt, especially with it's lack of a decent Tek emulator and all..
13 16:38:00 auchter yeah, not having Tek in urxvt is killing me
13 17:27:00 tommost Morasiqu2: Well, with your blessing...
13 17:27:00 tommost And as for antialiased fonts:
13 17:28:00 tommost "emacs doesn't have antialiased fonts" == "emacs doesn't care about anything I do"
13 17:31:00 tommost And what kind of lame terminal doesn't let you change the font size dynamically? gnome-terminal certainly does.
13 17:32:00 auchter urxvt does as well, i've just never looked into how to do it
13 17:32:00 andy753421 auchter: actually, i'm not sure if it does..
13 17:32:00 andy753421 tommost: a fast one :P
13 17:33:00 tommost Also, I'm pretty sure that gnome-terminal does the server thing too.
13 17:33:00 auchter here's one solution: http://lists.schmorp.de/pipermail/rxvt-unicode/2007q3/000435.html
13 17:33:00 auchter the "server thing" isn't the only reason why it's fast
13 17:34:00 andy753421 yea, not using GTK is a pretty good start if you're going for speed
13 17:34:00 tommost At work I use about 5 gnome-terminals X forwarded from the server I work on. I've never had an issue with speed.
13 17:35:00 andy753421 tommost: your laptop also happens to be 2 years newer than mine :P
13 17:35:00 tommost This isn't my laptop.
13 17:35:00 auchter $ ldd /usr/bin/gnome-terminal | wc -l
13 17:35:00 auchter 61
13 17:35:00 auchter $ ldd /usr/bin/urxvtc | wc -l
13 17:35:00 auchter 14
13 17:36:00 andy753421 i don't know particularly about gnome-terminal as i haven't really used it much, but most gtk apps have a slight lag when I switch screens to them
13 17:36:00 tommost And it's probably not newer than your laptop.
13 17:36:00 auchter i usually have a hell of a lot more than 5 terminals open
13 17:36:00 auchter =>20, most of the time
13 17:36:00 tommost Are they X forwarded?
13 17:37:00 tommost And transparent?
13 17:37:00 auchter why does that matter?
13 17:37:00 tommost Makes it slower.
13 17:37:00 auchter urxvt supports transparency, but i think that's idiotic
13 17:37:00 auchter why the hell do i want to see through my terminal?
13 17:37:00 tommost Well, actually, it's fake transparency.
13 17:37:00 tommost It just shows the desktop background.
13 17:37:00 auchter the question remains
13 17:38:00 tommost Because I have a crappy ATI graphics card that won't run Compiz.
13 17:38:00 auchter that doesn't answer my question
13 17:38:00 tommost (And I've had trouble getting awesome running, too.)
13 17:38:00 tommost :(
13 17:38:00 auchter is there a problem with having a solid background for text?
13 17:38:00 tommost What question?
13 17:39:00 Morasique wait, who said you all could fight when i'm not here? that's just not cool
13 17:39:00 tommost It's less pretty than an image.
13 17:39:00 auchter uh... right...
13 17:39:00 auchter i forgot usability and sanity aren't your main concerns
13 17:39:00 tommost Also, on a crappy LCD like on my laptop the black level is annoying.
13 17:40:00 tommost Having a solid color makes the inconsistency of the backlight quite obvious.
13 17:40:00 tommost Which pisses me off.
13 17:40:00 tommost Because it cost $2,000.
13 17:40:00 tommost + $750.
13 17:41:00 tommost I wish that I could make the text background in Pidgin be transparent...
13 17:43:00 auchter i'm just not even sure how to respond
13 17:44:00 tommost Also, usability and appearance are not opposed.
13 17:44:00 tommost That's a false dichotomy.
13 17:45:00 andy753421 so some benchmarks: to open 10 terminal windows: xvt=0.09s, gnome-terminal=1.57s, xterm=0.7s, urxvt=1.24s, urxvtc=0.01s
13 17:45:00 auchter having text over a non-solid background is neither aestethically appealing nor usable
13 17:45:00 tommost I consider it to be both, with an appropriate image.
13 17:46:00 tommost andy753421: That's interesting.
13 17:46:00 auchter i beg you, please never go work for a publisher
13 17:46:00 tommost I wonder how much of gnome-terminal's slowness is caused by Unicode support?
13 17:46:00 auchter tommost: rxvt-*unicode*
13 17:46:00 andy753421 i would use xvt, if it supported color :)
13 17:47:00 auchter andy753421: which reminds me, ever get syntax highlighting for mk and rc?
13 17:47:00 tommost auchter: Is that not the same thing as urxvt?
13 17:48:00 auchter it is, but i'm puzzled at why unicode support would be a justifiable excuse for how slow it is
13 17:48:00 tommost I'm not looking for an excuse (I don't need one)—I'm curious.
13 17:48:00 tommost I don't see why it would.
13 17:49:00 andy753421 auchter: yes, but it's buggy, i'll post a copy
13 17:50:00 auchter andy753421: awesome... i'm still awaiting the 9fans annoucement ;)
13 17:51:00 andy753421 http://andy753421.ath.cx/
13 17:52:00 andy753421 there's some bugs with the assignment regex, but it's mostly usable
13 17:52:00 andy753421 the vast majority of rc is not implemented though since I use mk much more than rc
13 17:53:00 auchter yeah, most of my more complex rc stuff is at work...
13 18:09:00 auchter the one for mk seems to work mostly fine for me (barring the craziness on line 6), but the one for rc doesn't seem to highlight while for some reason: http://freya.phire.org/files/2008-06-13-220734_1920x1200_scrot.png
13 18:10:00 andy753421 auchter: line 6 is because the rule has precedence over assignment (the : makes it think it's a rule)
13 18:10:00 andy753421 the while stuff is because 'while' is not implemented in the syntax file :P
13 18:11:00 andy753421 oh, is should make `{stuff} get highlighted as rc scripts
13 18:11:00 auchter andy753421: ah, alright. i looked at the syntax file for rc and wasn't sure where stuff like that would go
13 18:12:00 auchter perhaps i'll read about that in a bit
13 18:12:00 auchter also, line 13
13 18:12:00 andy753421 yea, it's a bit complicated, i couldn't find any general rules on how things are *supposed* to be done so I just made stuff up
13 18:13:00 andy753421 what's wrong with line 13?
13 18:14:00 auchter the .o is a different color than the .c
13 18:14:00 andy753421 it's supposed to be like that (I was copying the Makefile syntax)
13 18:15:00 andy753421 left of the : everything is highlighted, right of it only specials are
13 18:15:00 auchter oh, alright then... i suppose i never noticed that before
13 18:16:00 andy753421 also, the left side of the assignments should be highlighted, but I didn't realize a space was allowed between around the ='s
13 18:16:00 auchter oddly enough, it works for the rc
13 18:19:00 andy753421 yea, i did those a little different, I don't think that assignments in mk are technically rc script though, i think they're separate just with similar syntax, i may be wrong though
13 18:20:00 auchter ah, good point
13 19:39:00 andy753421 auchter: i fixed a couple of those bugs in mk.vim
13 20:11:00 auchter andy753421: here's a regex for advanced redirection: \(<\|>\||\)[\d\+=\?\d*\]
13 20:26:00 andy753421 alright, what color would you like :P
13 20:27:00 auchter andy753421: that's exactly why i didn't actually put it in my rc.vim :)
13 20:29:00 andy753421 i'll make the special chars statements and the numbers numbers
13 20:29:00 andy753421 that's what sh does
13 20:40:00 andy753421 auchter: updated
13 20:42:00 auchter looks pretty awesome
13 20:47:00 andy753421 auchter: you should add in the rest of the rc stuff :)
13 20:49:00 auchter yeah, i'll do that in a bit
13 21:25:00 andy753421 wow, i'm scared of the results on the latest slashdot poll, not that slashdot polls actually matter or anything..
13 21:31:00 auchter it's a horribly worded poll with even worse options, but considering the extradition agreements and jurisdiction the us courts seem to think they have, i can see why that option is winning
13 22:42:00 Morasique allie just told me i should use plan9. i died inside
13 22:42:00 Morasique glares at andy753421
13 23:53:00 auchter andy753421: i think you want something along the lines of: \$[#"]\?\S\{-1,}\w*\(([^)]*)\)\? for rcVarRef
13 23:54:00 auchter to match $#*, $%, and $"test, for example
13 23:55:00 auchter hm, though that doesn't solve the problem of $"something quoting the rest of the document...
13 23:56:00 auchter i'll think about this more tomorrow.
14 01:20:00 andy753421 auchter: if all else fails we can use start=+[^$]\z(['"]\)+
14 01:21:00 andy753421 but I think rearranging the order might fix it, getting the order right seems to be trail and error for me so far
14 01:46:00 andy753421 auchter: :q
14 01:47:00 andy753421 auchter: updated, can you actually do $% though? what does that mean?
14 01:47:00 andy753421 I did it a bit different because $#foo(1) is invalid
14 01:47:00 andy753421 also, so it highlights the numbers as numbers
14 10:48:00 auchter andy753421: $% is valid, it just doesn't mean anything special
14 14:23:00 Morasique "Ari Jaaski of Nokia is concerned that the Linux developers need to learn to live with DRM"
14 14:23:00 Morasique good luck with that
14 14:24:00 auchter good luck with getting any reasonable person to live with DRM
14 14:25:00 Morasique well, it's pretty impressive what windows users will live with
14 14:25:00 Morasique glares at vista
14 14:25:00 auchter oh, i didn't actually think anyone used that
14 14:25:00 Morasique i suppose it depends who you ask. according to microsoft they do
14 14:25:00 Morasique technically i do, i think i'm going to put gentoo on my desktop sometime today
14 14:26:00 Morasique itunes is drm-ed and gobs of people use that
14 14:26:00 Morasique they don't seem to care/know until all the sudden they can't do something
14 14:26:00 auchter paraphrasing from the documentation for a tool at lexmark: "Under Linux, you'll need to run this as root, since it uses a port <1024. Under Windows 2000/XP , you can run it as a normal user as Microsoft doesn't care about your security. I don't know about Vista, but I suspect you have much greater problems to worry about if you're using it."
14 14:27:00 Morasique :D nice. i didn't know you needed root to access low ports
14 14:27:00 auchter to bind a server to one <1024, you do
14 14:27:00 Morasique ah, ok
14 14:28:00 auchter yay gentoo, though
14 14:29:00 auchter hm, it'd be a tie between gentoo and ubuntu users in here if you switch...
14 14:29:00 Morasique i'm not switching, i'm expanding :)
14 14:29:00 auchter damn you
14 14:29:00 Morasique i may install it on my alarm clock too though, if you want to count that
14 14:29:00 Morasique it's running 2000 right now
14 14:29:00 auchter ...
14 14:29:00 Morasique it's a laptop
14 14:29:00 Morasique a very old one
14 14:29:00 Morasique i use it for an alarm clock
14 14:30:00 auchter i suppose i do pretty much the same thing as a coffee timer for my french-press
14 14:30:00 auchter sleep 300; mplayer [somethingloud]
14 14:30:00 Morasique :D nice
14 14:31:00 auchter now that i bought a chemex brewer, i'm addicted to that, though... and no timing involved
14 14:31:00 Morasique http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mrozekma/clock.png
14 14:31:00 Morasique "chemex brewer"? that sounds dangerous
14 14:31:00 auchter that clock looks dangerou
14 14:31:00 auchter s
14 14:31:00 Morasique well, it doesn't use chemex technology, which i suspect is some sort of biological warfare
14 14:32:00 auchter behold the chemex: http://21streetcoffee.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/cm-6a.jpg
14 14:32:00 auchter to think that i used to look upon drip coffee with disdain...
14 14:32:00 Morasique that is some sort of witchcraft
14 14:33:00 auchter hey, whatever's necessary for a perfect cup
14 14:33:00 auchter if it involves hybrid-goat sacrifices, i'm up for it
14 14:33:00 Morasique :D that should be the motto of some coffee maker: "whatever's necessary for a perfect cup"
14 14:34:00 auchter hm, i've been thinking about starting a coffee roasting business...
14 14:36:00 auchter http://www.gccxml.org/HTML/Index.html
14 14:37:00 Morasique that's cool
14 14:37:00 auchter no. no it isn't.
14 14:37:00 Morasique why?
14 14:38:00 Morasique parsing c++ is supposed to be terrible, it would be educational to see how gcc does it
14 14:48:00 Blazeix Did anyone see the pidgin-LaTeX plugin go by on reddit?
14 14:48:00 Blazeix It apparently works for IRC as well
14 14:49:00 auchter i thought that's been around for some time now
14 14:49:00 Blazeix it has, i just noticed it though
14 14:49:00 Morasique oh, that's cool. sadly i don't use pidgin for irc
14 14:49:00 auchter oh, now that's a cup of coffee
14 14:49:00 Blazeix no. Its a pidgin plugin.
14 14:50:00 Morasique common mistake
14 14:50:00 auchter s/cup.*$/pidgin plugin/
14 16:29:00 Morasique my dsl modem shows this prompt every time i do anything: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mrozekma/modem.png
14 16:30:00 Morasique it's like vista's uac prompts, but for absolutely everything, even the most trivial configuration change
14 16:30:00 auchter that would get very old quickly
14 16:30:00 Morasique i don't know how the developers/testers of this thing made it more than 10 minutes without blowing their heads off
14 16:31:00 tommost Morasique: Greasemonkey.
14 16:31:00 Morasique :D not a bad plan
14 16:34:00 auchter Morasique: WWW::Mechanize
14 16:34:00 Morasique a perl solution. the definition of a bad plan
14 17:50:00 Morasique this dsl modem is the biggest pos ever. it appears to ignore my port forwarding settings, and dmz doesn't work at all, if i try to set it nothing happens, it just stays disabled
14 17:50:00 Morasique unbelievable, i just got that warning about changing settings being dangerous when i tried to go to the page that shows the log file. that's all it does is display the log contents
14 17:51:00 Morasique the log is also empty, i find it hard to believe in the three weeks i've been using this modem nothing has ever happened
14 17:51:00 auchter that sounds downright evil
14 17:51:00 auchter i've never understood why telcos try to impose shitty routers on people
14 17:52:00 Morasique the dmz/port forwarding is the only part i really care about, i need one of them to work, my machines are completely inaccessible from the internet
14 17:54:00 Morasique and it would be sweet if it stopped restarting without warning me
14 17:54:00 Morasique i kind of use it to connect to the internet
14 17:58:00 Morasique er. wait a minute. somebody try going here please: http://71.98.64.116/
14 17:58:00 Morasique i tried it from addiator and it seems like it worked
14 17:58:00 Morasique it should just say placeholder
14 17:59:00 auchter Morasique: indeed
14 18:00:00 Morasique that's bizarre. apparently it works from outside my network, but i can't establish a connection if i try it from inside
14 18:00:00 auchter Morasique: from a technical standpoint that seems likely
14 18:00:00 Morasique it must be some quirk of port forwarding. well at least that works
14 18:01:00 auchter Morasique: doing stuff like that with NAT is actually really difficult
14 18:01:00 Morasique i don't recall ever running into that with other routers, but it's possible i never tried
14 18:01:00 Morasique ah, ok
14 18:01:00 auchter yes, it works with most routers
14 18:01:00 auchter but that doesn't change the fact that NAT is stupid and hard to work with
14 18:02:00 auchter see: http://www.openbsd.org/faq/pf/rdr.html
14 18:02:00 Morasique you had that available very quickly
14 21:07:00 Morasique apparently if you use tor you can't connect to the standard freenode servers
14 21:09:00 auchter i never understood the point of tor (or ssl, for that matter) for irc
14 21:09:00 Morasique there isn't one, but freenode detects if you're running a forwarding node and won't let you connect, you have to use a special server
14 21:09:00 auchter ah, i see
14 21:10:00 Morasique which is why i was gone for a while, i got kicked and xchat was trying to connect over and over again, i didn't notice for some time
14 21:10:00 auchter i usually run tor+privoxy on my router, but i've switched (at least for the summer) to an off the shelf one
14 21:11:00 Morasique any reason?
14 21:11:00 auchter for?
14 21:11:00 Morasique switching
14 21:11:00 auchter noise, mostly (1U rackmount boxes are annoying)
14 21:12:00 auchter well, and i didn't want to move too much this summer
14 21:15:00 Morasique oh, cool: (i=mrozekma@gateway/tor/x-1e7881646630e1cc)
14 21:15:00 Morasique now i'm safe from you lot
14 21:15:00 Morasique although i just posted my ip here a few hours ago, and i don't think it changes
14 22:49:00 Blazeix I just died a little.
14 22:49:00 tommost Why?
14 22:49:00 Morasique opened vim?
14 22:50:00 Blazeix I'm watching Stargate, and they are making a virus that will travel from stargate to stargate
14 22:50:00 Blazeix they have a scene where they are writing the virus
14 22:50:00 Blazeix and its in C#
14 22:50:00 tommost Ouch.
14 22:50:00 Morasique :D the universal stargate language
14 22:50:00 Morasique you'd think all tv shows would choose perl, it looks cryptic and confusing
14 22:50:00 tommost Hehe.
14 22:51:00 Blazeix its o.k., they have a lot of byte arrays in there, so you know its complicated.
14 22:51:00 tommost That's really just the near-universal problem with science fiction TV: technical problems call for technical solutions.
14 22:51:00 Morasique unsafe {} blocks all over the place
14 22:51:00 tommost Incidentally, a show that normally is free of that stuff, BSG, made me wince the other day.
14 22:52:00 Morasique bsg avoids it by not using computers more powerful than microwaves :)
14 22:52:00 tommost Indeed.
14 22:52:00 Morasique i was going to say toasters but decided to avoid the pun
14 22:53:00 tommost :D
14 22:54:00 tommost I was really pissed yesterday when I went to watch it—actually watch it on TV, *with ads*—and realized that the back episodes on the SciFi web site didn't include the previous week's, so I couldn't watch it.
14 22:54:00 Morasique :)
14 22:54:00 tommost What kind of online video service doesn't let you catch up on episodes you've missed far enough to actually watch the thing on TV?
14 22:55:00 Morasique usually they're only a day or two behind
14 22:55:00 tommost Yeah, like NBC's old one.
14 22:56:00 tommost But SciFi's (owned by Vivendi Universal, just like NBC) isn't.
14 22:56:00 tommost Are they *trying* to get me to torrent it?
14 22:56:00 Morasique :D
14 23:01:00 auchter speaking of vivendi, i've always found this amusing on the back of an album cover: http://cstrecords.com/cst_images/cst024addart1.jpg
14 23:03:00 Morasique nice. reminds me of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I6nuwQmhrZ8
14 23:05:00 auchter heh, i hadn't seen that before
14 23:08:00 tommost That was great.
14 23:41:00 auchter i finally fixed the problem of my laptop not having a working battery
14 23:41:00 tommost How so? New battery?
14 23:42:00 Morasique did you get a new battery? that seems like a winning solution
14 23:42:00 auchter nope, i bought a 15m extension cord
14 23:42:00 tommost Hehe.
14 23:42:00 Morasique wow
14 23:42:00 Morasique i have two AC adapters, so that's sufficient coverage for my whole apartment
14 23:42:00 auchter if i unplug my laptop, it turns off
14 23:43:00 Morasique oh. that's inconvenient
14 23:43:00 auchter http://rafb.net/p/OtxJ5b20.html
14 23:44:00 Morasique :D wow
14 23:44:00 Morasique that makes my 1730mAh seem amazing
14 23:45:00 tommost http://dpaste.com/56652/
14 23:46:00 Morasique go die
14 23:46:00 tommost I think that it's decreasing pretty fast, actually, so that's what my laptop's going to do.
14 23:46:00 Morasique since it's the cool thing to do: http://dpaste.com/56653/
14 23:47:00 tommost Why does the design capacity get reported correctly for you?
14 23:47:00 Morasique i'm not sure, maybe something about the battery make
14 23:48:00 Morasique i wish it didn't, it makes it glaringly obvious what i used to have
14 23:48:00 tommost I think that your battery had a larger rated capacity in any case.
14 23:48:00 tommost I noticed this earlier this year with Andy's.
14 23:48:00 Morasique not helping :)
14 23:49:00 tommost I just want to line my laptop bag with NiMH cells.
14 23:50:00 auchter the TSA would love that
14 23:50:00 auchter you'd get to go on vacation to a tropical land
14 23:50:00 tommost The new photo ID requirement means that I'll be avoiding the TSA at all costs in any case.
14 23:52:00 auchter meh, i don't really take domestic flights anyway, so the requirement of photo id is moot
14 23:52:00 tommost Yeah, I like Amtrak.
14 23:53:00 tommost Aside from the horrible arrival/departure times, it's much less of a PITA.
14 23:53:00 auchter except when this happens: http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Site=C4&Date=20080610&Category=NEWS&ArtNo=806100803&Ref=PH&Params=Itemnr=3
14 23:53:00 auchter (a friend of mine took that photo in his backyard the other day)
14 23:53:00 tommost So?
14 23:54:00 Morasique tommost: they can't drive through trees :)
14 23:54:00 tommost Trains are much less affected by the weather than planes.
14 23:54:00 tommost Safer, too.
14 23:54:00 auchter oh, and the fact that our infrastructure sucks
14 23:54:00 Morasique got to watch out for bandits though
14 23:54:00 Morasique plus i've seen mission impossible, crazy stuff happens on those trains
14 23:55:00 tommost The arrival/departure time problem is caused by there not being enough people using trains.
14 23:55:00 Morasique that surprises me, i never use either but if i needed one i would prefer trains to planes
14 23:56:00 auchter see: infrastructure sucks
14 23:56:00 tommost Well, Amtrak has more of a present in the east, apparently.
14 23:56:00 tommost auchter: Indeed.
15 00:02:00 auchter anyway, next time i fly my hard drive is being going to be checked in my luggage
15 00:02:00 auchter s/ being//
15 00:03:00 tommost Of course, you'll have to pay for that checked bag.
15 00:03:00 auchter i've no problem with that
15 00:14:00 Morasique my router's port forwarding service menu has every networked computer game ever made, but not SSH
15 00:16:00 auchter games are far more important than ssh
15 00:16:00 Morasique true
15 00:16:00 auchter have i mentioned that i hate computer games?
15 00:17:00 tommost No, but it doesn't surprise me.
15 00:17:00 Morasique i'm not surprised. they involve graphics, and cpu wasting :)
15 00:17:00 Morasique damn you tommost
15 00:17:00 tommost I just opened Exaile and thought, "auchter would hate this too".
15 00:19:00 Morasique auchter used to use mpd, it was one of the few programs we agreed on, i think he stopped though
15 00:19:00 auchter yes. yes i would. i hate all forms of music playback that aren't my turntable, buti tolerate them
15 00:19:00 auchter i'm currently using mplayer
15 00:20:00 auchter i'm a bit obsessive compulsive about sound reproduction...
15 00:20:00 tommost Again, not surprised.
15 00:24:00 auchter mmm... tubes... http://freya.phire.org/files/img_5283.jpg
15 00:24:00 Morasique what the heck is that terrifying contraption
15 00:24:00 auchter my headphone amplifier
15 00:24:00 tommost It's used for killing mice.
15 00:24:00 Morasique .....wow
15 00:24:00 tommost Slowly.l
15 00:25:00 auchter actually, it could easily kill me
15 00:25:00 tommost Quickly, then.
15 00:25:00 auchter voltages >250V stored in large caps on the inside...
15 00:25:00 auchter those two large capacitors in the back (each is the size of a 12oz. can) are what prevents around 80V from reaching my headphones
15 00:26:00 Morasique so, if you hypothetically wanted to kill auchter and make it look like an accident
15 00:26:00 Morasique ...
15 00:26:00 auchter http://freya.phire.org/files/capacitor1.jpg
15 00:27:00 tommost Did you build this thing?
15 00:27:00 auchter yeah
15 00:27:00 Morasique i can't imagine it would be legal to sell such a thing :)
15 00:27:00 auchter oh it is, but i rather enjoy building stuff like this
15 00:32:00 Morasique erm. this is the first time i've ever seen this: http://www.reddit.com/over18?dest=%2Fr%2Fnsfw%2Fgoto%3Frss%3Dtrue%26id%3Dt3_6n8hb
15 00:32:00 Morasique feel free to click yes; the article in question is about food dyes
15 00:32:00 auchter that's confusing
15 00:33:00 auchter still on the subject of terrifying things i connect to things that go on my head: http://freya.phire.org/files/bipolar-psu.jpg
15 00:34:00 tommost You should pack some of these devices next to your hard drive on that plane flight.
15 00:36:00 auchter i've brought a homemade portable amp through 3 different airport security things before with no problem
15 00:36:00 auchter three different countries, too. i think i got one question on it
15 01:22:00 Morasique there appears to be some disagreement about what time it is, all the files in the latest portage snapshot are about 1000 seconds in the future
15 01:26:00 auchter i blame ubuntu
15 01:26:00 Morasique yes, ubuntu has a lot to do with portage :)
15 01:27:00 auchter well, if you were using emerge, then i'd blame python
15 01:28:00 Morasique it's taking so long to decompress i might actually catch up to the future
15 01:28:00 Morasique it's only like 600 seconds ahead now
15 01:28:00 auchter are you using the v flag on tar?
15 01:29:00 Morasique yeah
15 01:29:00 auchter uh, yeah... i'd advise against that...
15 01:29:00 Morasique i did it by instinct, i didn't realize it would slow it down so badly :)
15 01:29:00 auchter yeah, it will. i'd kill it and start it again
15 01:30:00 Morasique well it just finished
15 11:50:00 auchter Morasique: so, how's gentoo going?
15 12:27:00 crr judging by my experience with it, he's probably not done compiling for the initial installation
15 14:27:00 Morasique auchter: i did the kernel compile overnight, i just got up
15 14:29:00 auchter kernel compile overnight? a kernel usually takes no more than 15 minutes to compile...
15 14:29:00 Morasique i have no idea how long it took, i was tired :)
15 14:30:00 auchter haha, usually i start the Xorg compile before sleeping, that usually takes a while...
15 14:37:00 andy753421 yea, i was running 'emerge -uDN world' last night, it's been on OOo since I woke up :)
15 14:41:00 auchter ouch.
15 14:44:00 andy753421 hehe, at least since 7.0 Xorg /looks/ like it's making progress :)
15 14:44:00 andy753421 and when it inevitably crashes you don't have to restart the entire thing
15 14:44:00 auchter from what i've heard, Xorg is an absolute pain to build manually
15 14:52:00 Morasique what's the difference between hda and sda, is sda scsi?
15 14:53:00 auchter Morasique: usually, sd* is usually sata as well
15 14:53:00 Morasique ok
15 14:54:00 andy753421 i think sda is generally any serial disk (so usb keys as well)
15 14:55:00 auchter i always though it was because usb and sata and such go through the scsi interface in the kernel
15 14:56:00 andy753421 maybe, i've never looked into it, there might be something in /Documentation that says what it means
15 14:56:00 Morasique i was just curious why all the gentoo documentation uses sd* but all my hard drives have always been hd*, but they're all IDE so that makes sense
15 14:57:00 andy753421 auchter: looks like you're right, devices.txt says sd? is for SCSI disk devices
15 14:58:00 andy753421 Morasique: to make matters more confusing, our laptops are sda, but the hard disk are IDE :)
15 14:59:00 Morasique nice
15 15:00:00 andy753421 yea, you can blame DELL for that one
15 15:05:00 Morasique rose's network is setting new records for slowness
15 15:07:00 andy753421 why, nobody's even there?
15 15:09:00 Morasique i don't know, maybe it's just my internet, but everything else seems to be fine. addiator took especially long to ssh to, and tab completing on my afs mount is painful, it takes like 20 seconds everytime i forget and hit tab
15 15:09:00 Morasique there should be a key to abort a tab complete, there's probably a way to do that i should find
15 15:11:00 tommost It must be you, Morasique. Things are quite speedy for me.
15 15:12:00 Morasique i was sad for a second until i realized who was talking
15 15:13:00 tommost No, really. I acquired a certain bit of visual media last night in about half an hour, using the previously discussed technique.
15 15:13:00 Morasique aren't you on campus?
15 15:13:00 tommost Yes.
15 15:13:00 Morasique i like to think your connection will probably be faster than mine
15 15:14:00 tommost But that certainly indicates that the outbound link isn't saturated.
15 15:15:00 Morasique well it's a different bandwidth going in each direction, but it is probably something wrong with my internet, it isn't particularly brilliant
15 15:19:00 tommost I need a recipe for cookies.
15 15:19:00 auchter we should start a lug recipes page on the wiki
15 15:20:00 tommost Good idea.
15 15:21:00 tommost http://lug.phire.org/wiki/Recipes
15 15:21:00 Morasique wow
15 15:21:00 auchter i suggest a namespace for recipes, or just put them all on one page
15 15:21:00 Morasique you should probably do Recipes/Cookies
15 15:22:00 Morasique or a namespace, but that's unusual
15 15:22:00 tommost Good idea.
15 15:22:00 tommost Yeah, a namespace isn't worth the trouble.
15 15:23:00 tommost Done.
15 15:24:00 tommost Now we need some recipes.
15 15:24:00 auchter i'm typing one up as we speak
15 15:24:00 Morasique my internet is terrible, i apologize for blaming rose
15 15:24:00 tommost Excellent.
15 15:29:00 octaviou2 referring to a previous conversation: device naming hd* or sd* is based off of the driver
15 15:30:00 octaviou2 and it is really outdated anyway...its just essentially there for legacy support
15 15:30:00 octaviou2 as udev supports all sorts of more-accurate drive labels
15 15:30:00 octaviou2 just check out /dev/disk
15 15:34:00 octaviou2 auchter: i own 2 out of the 11 items needed for your dish...
15 15:35:00 auchter octaviou2: that's just a sign that you need to find your local international market and buy everything they have
15 15:35:00 tommost This looks excellent.
15 15:36:00 auchter i should probably note somewhere that i've never actually measured out any of the ingredients, so they're pretty approximate
15 15:37:00 auchter i hope to see many more linux-related recipes on that page
15 15:37:00 tommost octavious: I have three. Take that.
15 15:38:00 auchter tommost: since you're in the haute, baesler's has excellent ground lamb
15 15:38:00 auchter spices i suggest buying at the sunmart on 7th and poplar
15 15:39:00 octavious i eat rice and chicken for every meal.
15 15:39:00 octavious a rice cooker is a great investment in my opinion
15 15:39:00 tommost I need a rice cooker.
15 15:39:00 auchter octavious: i eat rice quite a bit, but absolutely cannot stand chicken
15 15:39:00 tommost My rice always seems somewhat underdone.
15 15:39:00 auchter you do. i suggest zojirushi
15 15:40:00 Morasique auchter: chicken is fantastic, you are a terrible person
15 15:40:00 auchter now that i have access to decent seafood (unobtainable in terre haute) i've been eating that at every opportunity
15 15:41:00 auchter i've got a whole trout sitting in my fridge right now... i have to figure out how i want to eat that tonight
15 15:41:00 octavious every week i buy a bag of frozen chicken breasts and cook them on my roomates knock-off george foreman
15 15:44:00 tommost How cheap can I realistically go on a rice cooker?
15 15:44:00 octavious 17 or 18 dollars
15 15:45:00 auchter you can, but i suggest spending more
15 15:45:00 tommost By realistically I meant how little can I spend and get something that isn't crap.
15 15:45:00 tommost There's this one: http://www.amazon.com/Zojirushi-NHS-06-3-Cup-Rice-Cooker/dp/B00004S575/ref=pd_bbs_sr_12?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1213559051&sr=8-12
15 15:48:00 auchter i suppose it really depends on the features you want
15 15:48:00 tommost I want it to cook rice.
15 15:48:00 Morasique i added my helpful contribution to the recipes page
15 15:49:00 tommost Morasique: You are ridiculous.
15 15:49:00 auchter Morasique: that's actually pretty useful.
15 15:50:00 Morasique assuming you've never ordered pizza before, i suppose it is
15 15:52:00 andy753421 I'll put up a real recipe for pizza in a bit, much better than domino's
15 15:52:00 Morasique yes, but does your recipe have a 30 minute guarantee?
15 15:53:00 Morasique s/guarantee/non-binding estimate/
15 15:53:00 andy753421 No. Infact, it will take several hours for the crust to rise.
15 15:53:00 Morasique see. you could order 4 pizza from domino's in that time
15 15:53:00 Morasique s/pizza/pizzas/
15 15:54:00 auchter i bet i could order several hundred pizza from dominos in that time
15 15:55:00 Morasique well, i mean receiving one before ordering the next. which would probably piss them off quite a lot, we should try that someday
15 15:56:00 auchter i've always found it best to not piss off people who are handling your food
15 15:58:00 Morasique true
15 16:01:00 Morasique how am i supposed to know what kernel modules i want automatically loaded?
15 16:25:00 andy753421 Morasique: you mean, you don't just _know_ :P
15 16:25:00 Morasique sadly no, which i think is what they expect :)
15 16:25:00 andy753421 hm. are you using baselayout 2.0 and openrc?
15 16:26:00 andy753421 not that that matters, but eya
15 16:26:00 andy753421 *yea
15 16:26:00 andy753421 also, are you using the GUI installer, or the handbook?
15 16:26:00 Morasique i don't think it's possible for me to have less of a clue. i'm following the instructions in the gentoo handbook pretty much word for word
15 16:26:00 andy753421 alright, what step is that in?
15 16:27:00 Morasique http://www.gentoo.org/doc/en/handbook/handbook-x86.xml?part=1&chap=7
15 16:27:00 Morasique the bottom
15 16:27:00 andy753421 ok, you're giong to have fun quite quickly :)
15 16:27:00 andy753421 that's using the old style baselayout, so you'll have to change that fairly soon, but anyway :)
15 16:28:00 andy753421 it all depends on what you compiled as modules and what you use regularly
15 16:28:00 andy753421 For me, I autoload i8k, loop, fuse, b43, kqemu, and various acpi modules
15 16:29:00 Morasique ok. i'll have to go through the list and try to figure out what things i need
15 16:29:00 andy753421 what all did you compile as modules anyway?
15 16:29:00 andy753421 I tend to compile most of my stuff strait into the kernel so I don't have to autoload that much
15 16:30:00 Morasique maybe that's what i did, i have nothing in the directory they said i should have stuff in :)
15 16:31:00 Morasique is there a reason to compile stuff as modules? just so you can load it some of the time?
15 16:31:00 andy753421 ok, if you do "grep '=m' /usr/src/linux/.config" it should give you a list of the modules as well
15 16:31:00 auchter did you do make modules_install?
15 16:31:00 Morasique i don't recall doing that
15 16:31:00 andy753421 Morasique: you need to :)
15 16:32:00 andy753421 (code listing 3.8: Compile the kernel)
15 16:32:00 auchter if you didn't do make all, then you'll need to do make modules, too
15 16:32:00 Morasique oh, i did do that, i just went through my history to check
15 16:32:00 andy753421 auchter: doesn't 'make' default to 'make all'?
15 16:33:00 andy753421 anyway, yea, using modules can save time on boot up, for instance, I currently don't have CDROM support in my kernel because I rarely ever use the cdrom
15 16:33:00 auchter andy753421: probably, i just always explicitly invoke make all
15 16:34:00 auchter grr, looking through /usr/src/linux/Makefile makes me remember why i don't like make
15 16:34:00 andy753421 you can also unload modules if something goes wrong, for instance, if you spoof your mac address or screw something up with a network driver, you can unload and reload the modules to reset it to the defaults
15 16:35:00 Morasique oh, ok
15 16:35:00 andy753421 distros like ubuntu use almost exclusively modules so that they can detect the hardware at boot time and load the appropriate ones, but if you know beforehand what you will need, then that just makes it slower
15 16:36:00 andy753421 and a pain when you boot to single user mode :)
15 16:36:00 andy753421 er, i guess it only matters when you use init=/bin/bash
15 16:36:00 auchter my lsmod: http://rafb.net/p/LyPjv048.html
15 16:37:00 auchter really, the only things i compile as modules are things i forgot when i intially built my kernel and i don't feel like rebooting
15 16:37:00 andy753421 haha, yea i tend to do that too, but then i usually recompile it into the kernel and install that so that next time I boot it will be in the kernel
15 16:38:00 auchter all of those are autoloaded...
15 16:38:00 Morasique ok. well i'll go with nothing at the moment and see what stuff doesn't work when i start using it :)
15 16:38:00 Morasique hopefully i remembered everything i need when i built the kernel
15 16:39:00 andy753421 Morasique: Good luck, I rarely get a working system after the first reboot, as tommost can attest to :)
15 16:39:00 auchter so long as you remembered unix sockets, your root filesystem, and your hard drive controller, you're mostly good :)
15 16:39:00 auchter udev does not like not having sockets...
15 16:39:00 tommost curses gentoo under his breath
15 16:40:00 auchter curses ubuntu above his breath
15 16:40:00 andy753421 in other news, openoffice is _still_ compiling.. :(
15 16:41:00 andy753421 i should really just give in and use openoffice-bin
15 16:42:00 tommost laughs at gentoo
15 16:42:00 auchter andy753421: http://rafb.net/p/xjTdhq95.html
15 16:42:00 auchter no, no you shouldn't.
15 16:43:00 tommost giggles like a little girl
15 16:44:00 andy753421 hmm, what's tool generated that?
15 16:48:00 auchter andy753421: emerge
15 16:49:00 andy753421 ah interesting, I didn't know it told you file sizes, i've always just used eix since it's faster
15 16:49:00 auchter heh, i hadn't heard of eix
15 16:51:00 auchter well then, i'm switching. i was just thinking the other day "I wish there was an alternative to emerge that wasn't in python..."
15 16:51:00 andy753421 um, it's not exactly an alternative to emerge, it's just a search tool
15 16:51:00 auchter well, damn.
15 16:52:00 andy753421 there are some alternatives though, but they're all somewhat unsatable
15 16:53:00 andy753421 I think Paludis is the most popular of them
15 16:54:00 andy753421 hehe, 'paludis, the other package mangler'
15 16:54:00 andy753421 if you try it, let me know how it goes
15 16:55:00 auchter i'm working on something a bit more interesting now, but perhaps in a bit
15 16:55:00 Morasique as far as i can tell i have no internet connection, except irc is working fine
15 16:59:00 auchter Morasique: well, that sounds normal
15 17:53:00 octavious hmm. paludis looks interesting
15 17:54:00 Morasique i'm very entertained by these error messages. for example, "root filesystem could not be mounted read/write :("
15 17:54:00 Morasique it feels my pain
15 17:54:00 octavious sounds fun. i was getting those after my last upgrade, but it turns out LVM was just sucking
15 17:54:00 octavious ...so i got rid of it
15 17:57:00 octavious i dont think LVM was designed with laptops in mind. it added another layer of indirection to fail
15 17:59:00 auchter layer's are the linux way
15 17:59:00 auchter s/'//
15 18:00:00 octavious yeah, and i think it is a great concept for my desktop, but given the fragility of certain experimental filesystems, especially on a laptop...its just a disaster waiting to happen
15 18:00:00 Morasique woo. i got it to boot with a genkernel, it's still a giant ball of failure with the kernel i compiled
15 18:00:00 octavious not to mention i had to hand-install appropriate drivers into the initrd for a successful boot
15 18:15:00 octavious have you guys seen this blog?
15 18:15:00 octavious http://lolgentoo.blogspot.com/
15 18:16:00 auchter haha, wow
15 18:17:00 tommost Sadly, I don't get it.
15 18:18:00 auchter it looks like every bad and stupid meme, just applied to gentoo
15 18:18:00 Morasique :D i like the tmpfs one
15 18:19:00 Morasique did everyone else get the content warning thing?
15 18:19:00 auchter yeah, i did
15 18:19:00 Morasique this is now the second time i've gotten a content warning from a site i didn't know had them, for a page that didn't deserve one
15 18:20:00 octavious yeah, google/firefox != my mom. let me decide what i should/shouldnt visit
15 18:21:00 auchter i, for one, think that firefox should display a warning before it lets you go to any page at all
15 18:22:00 auchter and one for each subsequent link you click, just to make sure that you've been wanred
15 18:23:00 tommost auchter: Put your code where your mouth is. auchtery can do it!
15 18:24:00 auchter heh, i'm currently side-tracked on a more worthy project
15 18:24:00 andy753421 Morasique: are you installing gentoo on your laptop?
15 18:26:00 andy753421 and genkernel sucks, you should avoid it like the plague :)
15 18:26:00 auchter i concur
15 18:27:00 auchter andy753421: i don't know if you got my message due to the netsplit, but do you still have a copy of your code that uses libixp?
15 18:28:00 tommost There was a netsplit?
15 18:28:00 auchter weird stuff was happening a while ao
15 18:33:00 andy753421 auchter: apparenlty you didn't get mine :)
15 18:33:00 andy753421 (09:19:43 PM) andy753421: auchter: yea but I don't think it compiles against the new versions of it
15 18:33:00 andy753421 (09:19:47 PM) andy753421: and it uses C++
15 18:34:00 andy753421 i can pull it out for you if you like though
15 18:37:00 auchter ah, no i didn't
15 18:37:00 andy753421 http://andy753421.ath.cx/libixp_example.tar.bz2
15 18:37:00 andy753421 i don't know if it works at all anymore, but have fun, the code is under /src
15 18:37:00 auchter it doesn't matter if it compiles or not, i'm mostly just seeing what will be easier to use, libixp or lib9p
15 18:37:00 andy753421 lib9p? is that from p9p?
15 18:42:00 auchter yeah
15 18:43:00 andy753421 I think they'll be fairly similar, but i'm not sure
15 18:43:00 auchter libixp doesn't support directories, iirc
15 18:44:00 andy753421 eh? i didn't think there was much of a difference between directories and files
15 18:47:00 auchter "libixp lacks lib9p's file trees."
15 18:47:00 andy753421 hm.. what are file trees?
15 18:47:00 andy753421 is that some sort of utility features?
15 18:48:00 auchter no idea, i took it to mean directories, but looking at lib9p i think i'm wrog
15 18:51:00 auchter also, trying to have a conversation on irc while also cooking trout is something that i plan to avoid in the future
15 19:30:00 tommost I need a cookie recipe that doesn't involve baking soda. Just butter, {crystalline,brown,powdered} sugar, flour, molasses and vanilla.
15 19:30:00 tommost Oh, and I have eggs, too.
15 19:32:00 tommost At least, I'm assuming that I shouldn't use the baking soda that is sitting in the refrigerator.
15 19:42:00 andy753421 tommost: do you have peanut butter or oatmeal?
15 19:42:00 tommost Both, though the latter is 3-minute.
15 19:42:00 andy753421 i don't remember, but I want to say that peanut butter cookies don't need baking soda/powder
15 19:43:00 andy753421 but oatmeal cookies probably do :/
15 19:43:00 tommost I don't remember ever putting baking soda in cookies myself, but I can't seem to find any recipes online that don't have it.
15 19:43:00 andy753421 you probably don't _need_ it, they will just be flatter
15 20:14:00 andy753421 tommost: you could make nobake cookies
15 20:15:00 tommost Those are icky.
15 20:16:00 tommost I'd like to make something that the ARA doesn't.
15 20:16:00 octavious nobakes are delicious if done right
15 20:17:00 andy753421 the ARA makes things, the just don't make them well
15 20:17:00 andy753421 *makes good things
15 20:17:00 auchter i concur with the nobake-liking sentiment
15 20:18:00 tommost I also lack cocoa power.
15 20:18:00 octavious well i cant imagine them tasting any good without that..
15 20:20:00 auchter i have to say, the nobakes sold at coffee grounds in terre haute are rather delicious
15 20:20:00 auchter that's a rather speedy option to obtaining cocoa powder
15 20:21:00 tommost I wonder if they sell baking soda at Circle K.
15 20:22:00 auchter probably
15 20:22:00 andy753421 meh, just use nesquik :P
15 20:22:00 tommost There's some SwissMiss hanging around.
15 20:22:00 auchter close enough
15 20:23:00 auchter why do you have such a dire need for cookies?
15 20:24:00 tommost I crave something sweet.
15 20:26:00 andy753421 tommost: just eat brown sugar
15 20:26:00 tommost :P
15 20:26:00 andy753421 or mix together a bunch of sugary stuff and make granola bars
15 20:27:00 tommost I went and bought all of the ingredients necessary for cookies except for baking soda.
15 20:27:00 tommost It saddens me that it stands between me and cookie goodness.
15 20:27:00 andy753421 where are you living?
15 20:28:00 octavious anyone around you could ask for some?
15 20:28:00 auchter best cookies ever: combine vanilla wafers, walnuts, corn syrup, and rum in equal parts. blend in a food processor
15 20:28:00 andy753421 yea, just go over to Skinner A4 and steel some from my old apartment
15 20:29:00 auchter tada, no baking soda involved
15 20:29:00 tommost Hey, that's right across the hall.
15 20:29:00 andy753421 oh, rum balls are pretty good, we always make fun of my grandma for eating those
15 20:30:00 auchter haha, why's that?
15 20:30:00 andy753421 eh, it's funny?
15 20:31:00 auchter ah, i see
15 20:32:00 andy753421 tommost: yea, if you need any ingredients this summer, feel free to take it from A4
15 20:32:00 tommost There doesn't seem to be anyone in there.
15 20:33:00 tommost But the door's open.
15 20:34:00 andy753421 just go in and take it, baking soda should be in the top cabinet between the stove and the sink
15 20:35:00 tommost Ah, thanks.
15 20:35:00 tommost Cookies ahoy!
15 20:36:00 andy753421 i'm not sure how much is left, auchter used most of it neutralizing acid
15 20:37:00 tommost No, there's plenty. Half a box.
15 21:02:00 Morasique i lost power for like two hours. it was sad and lonely
15 21:02:00 auchter i usually interpret that as i sign that i should leave my apartment
15 21:04:00 Morasique well, we lost power because of alarming weather conditions, i probably would've died
15 21:05:00 Morasique andy753422: no, not my laptop, on my desktop
15 21:22:00 andy753422 Morasique: ah, i was going to send you a copy of my .config, where are you anyway?
15 21:22:00 Morasique like, physically? lafayette
15 21:23:00 Morasique i'm going through the config now, it turns out i had the wrong processor selected, which was probably bad :)
15 21:24:00 andy753422 haha, what type of error do you get when you try to run an invalid instruction anyway?
15 21:25:00 Morasique i don't know, i got many many errors that scrolled by quickly
15 22:22:00 tommost Is there anyone with a 2007-08 laptop and Ubuntu Hardy installed here?
15 22:22:00 Morasique is there even anyone with a 2007-08 laptop here but you?
15 22:22:00 tommost sighs
15 22:23:00 tommost My video overlay is going crazy.
15 22:23:00 tommost I managed to get it working my putting stuff in my xorg.conf, but it doesn't work well.
15 22:24:00 auchter what did you try?
15 22:24:00 tommost http://dpaste.com/56807/
15 22:25:00 tommost I'm guessing it was the TexturedVideo on bit on line 71.
15 22:26:00 tommost But ATI's config tool has butchered it.
15 22:26:00 Morasique i've never even heard of that option
15 22:26:00 tommost I'll see if I can find an older one.
15 22:27:00 tommost http://dpaste.com/56808/
15 22:27:00 tommost That one's more sane.
15 22:27:00 tommost And it makes me pretty sure about the TexturedVideo thing.
15 22:29:00 auchter http://dpaste.com/56809/
15 22:29:00 auchter that's the one that i'm currently using
15 22:30:00 auchter i'm not sure how i came to those settings
15 22:31:00 tommost What are the odds that this messes everything up if I try it?
15 22:31:00 tommost How similar are our chipsets?
15 22:31:00 auchter they're essentially the same, and what do you mean by "messes everything up"?
15 22:32:00 tommost Fails to work.
15 22:32:00 auchter worst case, you revert the changes; i don't see what you have to lose
15 22:32:00 tommost That's what I'm thinking.
15 22:32:00 auchter the last movie i watched i didn't notice too many glitches (if any), but that may have been the filming style
15 22:37:00 tommost Why does X have to be so poorly documented?
15 22:37:00 tommost It's sad.
15 22:38:00 auchter why does X have to be so horrible?
15 22:38:00 Morasique woo. i compiled my own kernel and it works. like some sort of real linux user
15 22:39:00 tommost Morasique: Boo for Linux users.
15 22:39:00 tommost auchter: Can you articulate why precisely it is so horrible?
15 22:39:00 tommost I've never been clear on this point.
15 22:39:00 tommost Everyone seems to hate it, though.
15 22:41:00 auchter it's more of a "what is there to like" situation
15 22:41:00 auchter it's poorly documented (especially the code), absolutely massive, etc.
15 22:41:00 tommost What *should* there be to like?
15 22:42:00 auchter anyway, a preview of things to come from me: $ find /home/auchtemm/downloads/György\ Ligeti\ -\ \(1994\)\ Ligeti\ Edition\ V\ -\ String\ Quartets\ and\ Duets/*.flac | 9p write umd/playlist
15 22:42:00 tommost Get a UTF-8 enabled IRC client, please.
15 22:43:00 auchter i have one, it's just not running in utf-8 mode
15 22:43:00 auchter the filename wasn't important, anyway
15 23:17:00 Morasique so gentoo was as big a pain to get running as i expected, but it is actually ridiculously fast
15 23:17:00 tommost Benchmarks?
15 23:19:00 Morasique it takes at most 20 seconds to boot, and i probably have way more stuff enabled than i needed 'cause i didn't know what half the stuff in the kernel config menu was
15 23:19:00 Morasique whereas it takes my laptop more than 20 seconds to get past "Loading...please wait"
15 23:20:00 auchter tommost: http://funroll-loops.info/ all the benchmarks you need
15 23:21:00 andy753421 tommost: gentoo doesn't magically make for loops evaluate quicker, it's really more of being able to tweak which processes get started, etc
15 23:22:00 andy753421 comparing gentoo's standard 'ps -A | wc -l' and 'free' to ubuntu's would probably be informative
15 23:24:00 Morasique well i'm running them on different machines, so probably not so much
15 23:27:00 Morasique Score. IRC on my desktop
15 23:28:00 Morasique it continues to seem like magic when i have a screen session on multiple machines and typing on one makes characters appear on the other
15 23:32:00 tommost I didn't realize that you can attach to a session more than once.
15 23:32:00 Morasique yeah, it's a common usage
15 23:32:00 Morasique Blazeix and I used it last year when we were working on a group project, one of us would ssh to the other's machine and we would join the same screen
15 23:33:00 auchter wow
15 23:34:00 tommost I have seen this ricer page before. Unfortunately, I still can't figure out what "ricer" means.
15 23:34:00 auchter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rice_burner
15 23:35:00 Morasique wow. i know what ricers are and i couldn't care less about cars
15 23:36:00 tommost I couldn't *know* less about cars.
15 23:36:00 tommost Other than that they all suck.
15 23:36:00 Morasique ouch
15 23:51:00 cr1 it's true, cycling's the way to go
15 23:52:00 tommost I sorely miss my bike this summer.
15 23:52:00 tommost I'm hoping to avoid buying an actual car until I can get an electric one, but perhaps that is a vain hope.
15 23:53:00 cr1 as in, until you have enough $ to buy one?
15 23:53:00 tommost Until I need one. And they are available. And I can afford one.
15 23:56:00 auchter any particular reason?
15 23:57:00 Morasique er. a reason to buy an electric car?
15 23:57:00 auchter indeed
15 23:57:00 Morasique because the whole gas prices jumping to $4.15 where i am today is a super reason all on its own
15 23:58:00 cr1 yeah, it's embarassing
15 23:58:00 auchter well, electric is not the only alternative; biodiesel/vegetable oil is one that i'm particularly interested in
15 23:58:00 tommost Because ICE cars are terribly unreliable.
15 23:58:00 tommost They have too many moving parts.
15 23:59:00 Morasique tommost: as my constant breakdowns attest to. if gas were free i would still want an electric car, i loathe my car
16 00:00:00 cr1 Morasique: I didn't know you had a car
16 00:01:00 Morasique i do, and it hates me
16 00:01:00 Morasique and i hate it
16 00:02:00 Morasique and one day i will make it pay
16 00:02:00 andy753421 Morasique: I'll trade you ;)
16 00:03:00 Morasique i grow suspicious :)
16 00:04:00 cr1 all this talk of trading cars scared him off
16 00:09:00 andy753421 speaking of electric cars: xkcd
16 00:11:00 tommost Indeed.
16 00:13:00 Morasique nice
16 00:14:00 tommost I am actually somewhat tempted to buy an electric skateboard, but I'd feel totally derivative.
16 00:14:00 tommost And going to Rose, everyone would know where the idea came from.
16 00:16:00 tommost Awesome
16 00:16:00 tommost xpra works.
16 00:23:00 octavious have you guys seen this?
16 00:23:00 octavious http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~hoover/
16 00:23:00 octavious makes me laugh hysterically
16 00:23:00 tommost Yes. Yes we have.
16 00:24:00 octavious who is Gina Wang
16 00:24:00 octavious and how old is he/she
16 00:24:00 octavious and what gender is he/she
16 00:24:00 tommost It's a mystery.
16 00:24:00 octavious thats what i want to know.
16 00:24:00 tommost One I hope to never resolve.
16 00:24:00 octavious the face says 11 yrs old, but the hands say much older
16 00:27:00 Morasique you should ask hoover
16 00:27:00 Morasique preferably by e-mail so you can send us the answer
16 00:30:00 octavious i would be happy not to have to communicate with him ever again
16 00:31:00 tommost The rest of us would be happy to never start.
16 01:13:00 Morasique how do i get /tmp to clear on boot? i'm having trouble finding it
16 01:15:00 andy753421 /etc/conf.d/bootmisc
16 01:20:00 Morasique ah. thanks
16 01:28:00 tommost Just curious, but why would that ever not be the default?
16 01:30:00 andy753421 tommost: you might want to look at log files or something after a crash? wiping /tmp is also rather slow
16 01:30:00 tommost Ah. That makes sense.
16 01:33:00 tommost Is /tmp normally wiped on shutdown?
16 01:34:00 andy753421 I don't think so
16 01:34:00 andy753421 well, if you use tmpfs it is ;)
16 01:35:00 tommost Is it common for the swap partition to be encrypted? OpenBSD does this, right?
16 01:35:00 andy753421 no
16 01:36:00 andy753421 well, i don't think it's common, but I don't know about openbsd
16 01:36:00 Morasique tommost: about the /tmp thing, on ubuntu it's controlled by TMPTIME in /etc/default/rcS, the default is 0 which means clear everything on boot
16 01:36:00 andy753421 i don't konw though, i don't have a swap partition
16 01:37:00 tommost No need? I never seem to hit mine. The only use it would serve is hibernation, but it's just a bit too small.
16 01:37:00 andy753421 nope, i rarely go above ~500Mb of ram
16 01:38:00 Morasique andy753421: you make me sad. i have moreswap aliased to allocate extra swap space because i've been known to run out completely
16 01:38:00 andy753421 although, i could use it this summer while testing machine learning algorithms that were written in java :(
16 01:38:00 tommost Oh, wow. I'm above a gig at the moment.
16 01:38:00 tommost It must be because I'm running Compiz.
16 01:39:00 andy753421 Morasique: CFLAGS="-Os" ftw
16 01:39:00 tommost Actually, apparently it's mostly Firefox.
16 01:39:00 Morasique i thought that was for disk space
16 01:40:00 andy753421 it makes the binaries smaller, so they take up less space on disk and in ram (and load faster :)
16 01:40:00 Morasique ah
16 06:18:00 auchter tommost: openbsd had an option in the default install to encrypt swap
16 06:19:00 auchter tommost: there are ways to do it under linux as well. i usually don't have my swap turned on, though, so i've never looked into it
16 13:49:00 Morasique_work "Access to the following potentially unsafe attachments has been blocked: example_config_1.xml"
16 13:50:00 Morasique_work what the hell, webmail? i'm starting to think they just never implemented opening attachments from exchange webmail, so they put that message up to cover it up
16 14:21:00 andy753421 anyone know a good command line ftp client? (i.e. something that can download an entire directory not just single files)
16 14:50:00 Morasique_work this might help: http://www.unix.com/shell-programming-scripting/9174-recursive-ftp-here-last.html
16 14:50:00 Morasique_work i don't know of any
16 14:57:00 andy753421 seems 'wget -r -np ftp://.../' works, as does lftp using 'mget -d foo/*'
16 14:59:00 andy753421 ncftp also seems to have an option, but it's not installed on the server i'm using, and I don't feel like installing it..
16 15:07:00 Morasique_work i didn't know wget could do that, that's handy
16 15:07:00 Morasique_work also, this is super helpful: http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mrozekma/error.png
16 15:14:00 andy753421 yea, last time i checked -np doesn't work on http links though, so be careful
16 15:47:00 andy753421 Java's file chooser dialog has got to be the worst UI ever
16 16:27:00 auchter andy753421: worse than the gtk file chooser? impossible, i say!
16 16:28:00 andy753421 auchter: I like GTK+'s file chooser.. but yea, in Java's you can't type because it won't autocomplete, and you can't click because it just tries to rename the files
16 16:32:00 auchter http://freya.phire.org/files/gtkfcsucks.png
16 16:41:00 andy753421 hehe, I actually like that, although, I wish it would start at / and not my home directory
16 16:42:00 auchter it does start at /, you just have to click the <
16 16:42:00 auchter that funny looking icon? yeah, that's /.
16 16:42:00 andy753421 well, yes, but clicking < is annoying
16 16:43:00 auchter hence "stupid"
16 16:43:00 auchter the best file browser is find piped to grep ;)
16 16:44:00 Morasique_work i hate both java and gtk's file browsers, it's very sad but windows owns them both
16 16:44:00 andy753421 Morasique: you could just use KDE, it's pretty much a clone of windows
16 16:45:00 Morasique_work there's a bug report on gtk's file browser i remember seeing that's along the lines of "why can't we catch up to windows on this?"
16 16:45:00 andy753421 eh, i prefer gtk's over windows'
16 16:45:00 andy753421 I don't know why everybody hates it (other than it starts at $HOME instead of /, but that's not a huge deal)
16 16:54:00 Morasique_work it lacks hotkeys as far as i can discover, and it doesn't let you do anything but select files, you can't cut/copy/rename/any of that stuff that I do all the time from those dialogs
16 16:55:00 Morasique_work the hotkeys is my big problem, it's such a pain trying to get to / that i ended up symlinking it from my home directory just because of gtk's file dialog
16 16:57:00 auchter echo export HOME=/ >> ~/.bashrc
16 16:57:00 auchter problem solved!
16 16:58:00 auchter glares suspiciously at the weather outside
16 17:07:00 andy753421 Morasique: Alt-[0..9] is your best bet, http://library.gnome.org/devel/gtk/stable/GtkFileChooser.html#gtkfilechooser-key-bindings
16 17:30:00 Morasique_work i'm the only user on addiator
16 17:33:00 Morasique_work auchter: you suck
16 17:34:00 Morasique_work oh, and andy's on too. fail
16 18:57:00 Morasique i just found this on a blog: "Portage is to Gentoo what Jesus is to Christians"
16 18:58:00 tommost That doesn't seem untrue.
16 19:01:00 Morasique i'm emerging samba right now, it has an impressive 21 dependencies
16 19:01:00 Morasique including cups, which baffles me
16 19:02:00 Morasique tommost: what have you done to your brother? he likes ubuntu, web development, and rails
16 19:02:00 Morasique in short, most of the people in here already hate him. you've scarred him forever
16 19:02:00 tommost I disclaim all responsibility for Rails.
16 19:04:00 Morasique a wise choice
16 19:04:00 auchter so, there was a menu from this chinese place on my door (and apparently everyone else's door) today
16 19:04:00 auchter normally i have a very strong disdain for americanized chinese food, but this is rather tempting
16 19:05:00 auchter this may be because i haven't eaten in quite some time
16 19:05:00 tommost Is there a Chinese place in Terre Haute that delivers/
16 19:05:00 tommost ?
16 19:06:00 auchter yeah, there's at least one
16 19:06:00 tommost Is it edible?
16 19:06:00 tommost (This being Terre Haute, and the topic being Chinese food, I'm not holding out for "good.")
16 19:06:00 Morasique auchter: are you sure? i thought there was only one, and it closed down
16 19:07:00 auchter ok, we ordered it during freshman year
16 19:07:00 tommost :(
16 19:07:00 auchter i don't think we got deathly ill
16 19:07:00 tommost A good start.
16 19:07:00 auchter i'm not so sure about this place, but it's oddly tempting. should i order?
16 19:08:00 tommost Do you want more menus on your door?
16 19:08:00 auchter sure, it saves me time looking through google local
16 19:08:00 tommost Then why not?
16 19:08:00 auchter i'm on the phone now
16 19:09:00 auchter though i'm puzzled as to why they have a fax number listed
16 19:09:00 auchter well, they didn't ask for my name; odd for a carryout...
16 19:09:00 auchter nor did they give me an estimated time
16 19:11:00 Morasique i just realized emerge changes the terminal title as it works. that is the single greatest feature i have ever seen
16 19:12:00 auchter oh yes, it is incredibly useful
16 19:13:00 tommost Win for Python!
16 19:14:00 Morasique :D yes, clearly this is python's doing
16 19:44:00 auchter well then, this food is not nearly as horrible as i had expected
16 19:45:00 auchter plus, i can continue to hack away at code, something i couldn't do in a restaurant
16 19:47:00 andy753421 Morasique: did you have 'cups' in your use flags?
16 19:55:00 Morasique i didn't set them, it might be a default. it made more sense when i remembered samba supports printer sharing too, i couldn't figure out how the two were at all connected
16 19:55:00 Morasique s/them/it/
16 19:56:00 andy753421 Morasique: do an 'emerge -pv samba' and it'll show what's set
16 20:00:00 Morasique ah, cool. yeah, cups is set
16 20:18:00 tommost Yay finally! export PYTHONPATH=/home/mosttw/parti-all-0.0.4/install/lib/python:$PYTHONPATH
16 20:18:00 tommost export PATH=/home/mosttw/parti-all-0.0.4/install/bin:$PATH
16 20:18:00 tommost LINUX YOU FAIL AT COPY AND PASTE!!!
16 20:18:00 tommost http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0372/
16 20:26:00 auchter well, now i know what you're blathering about when you mention "dictionary" in python
16 20:26:00 tommost A hash table, yeah.
16 20:27:00 auchter figures.
16 20:29:00 tommost What did you think that it meant all this time?
16 20:30:00 auchter i had always ignored it and assumed it was some feature specific to python
16 20:30:00 auchter why can't they just call it a hash table like normal people
16 20:30:00 auchter or hell, associative array
16 20:31:00 tommost andy753421: You are proved right again.
16 20:31:00 tommost Hey, in JavaScript it's an "object". It could be worse. ;)
16 20:31:00 auchter hey, it is in java, too, haha
16 20:32:00 tommost Clever pun, there.
16 20:32:00 tommost But that's not really what I meant.
16 20:33:00 Morasique auchter: we made fun of that in our perl 6 presentation, on the slide about hashes we listed like 6 different terms for a hash table, it's quite depressing
16 20:33:00 tommost Are those just within Perl‽
16 20:33:00 Morasique no, perl calls them hashes
16 20:33:00 auchter yeah, and they're hilarious
16 20:34:00 tommost Ah, okay. I was afraid that Perl was even more insane that I always imagined.
16 20:34:00 tommost auchter: How so?
16 20:34:00 auchter "Entries are returned in an apparently random order. The actual random order is subject to change in future versions of perl, but it is guaranteed to be in the same order as either the "keys" or "values" function would produce on the same (unmodified) hash. Since Perl 5.8.1 the ordering is different even between different runs of Perl for security reasons (see "Algorithmic Complexity Attacks" in perlsec)"
16 20:34:00 tommost That is just stupid.
16 20:35:00 auchter hey, so long as each, keys, and values all align, what do i care?
16 20:35:00 tommost That seems like an extremely braindead security measure.
16 20:37:00 auchter http://rafb.net/p/3tPZ9y60.html
16 20:37:00 tommost auchter: I just installed that man page.
16 20:38:00 auchter glad i could help
16 20:41:00 tommost So the conclusion I am supposed to draw is that Perl's hashing algorithm sucks?
16 20:42:00 auchter i think the conclusion you could draw is that it's designed by people who know what they're doing
16 20:42:00 tommost Okay, that works too.
16 20:43:00 tommost ~
16 20:44:00 tommost I guess what I mean is that the solution feels more like a hack than a real solution.
16 20:57:00 Morasique ot
16 20:57:00 Morasique it's not everyday you see the phrase "naughty hash keys"
16 20:57:00 tommost Hehe.
16 20:57:00 tommost Bring some perspective to this discussion. Tell me how I am wrong.
16 21:03:00 tommost So, robots.
16 21:04:00 jboticsource yes
16 21:05:00 tommost How's that going, auchter?
16 21:08:00 tommost jboticsource: So, I seem to have scared auchter off by being stupid earlier. We can plot in safety until his return.
16 21:09:00 jboticsource cool
16 21:09:00 jboticsource so lego robots
16 21:09:00 tommost KICK ASS!!!
16 21:09:00 jboticsource i sent an email to my superriors
16 21:09:00 jboticsource begging for crap
16 21:09:00 jboticsource so we will see what we get
16 21:10:00 tommost Neato.
16 21:10:00 tommost In the non-Lego portion of the schedule, what do you think of small-scale combat robotics?
16 21:11:00 jboticsource FUCK YEA
16 21:11:00 jboticsource COMBAT
16 21:11:00 jboticsource i dont care if it is lego or not
16 21:11:00 jboticsource i am all for combat
16 21:13:00 jboticsource embedded combat lol
16 21:14:00 tommost Embedded combat?
16 21:14:00 jboticsource yea
16 21:15:00 jboticsource like using embedded suff for combat robotics
16 21:15:00 tommost What does that mean?
16 21:15:00 tommost Like, AI?
16 21:15:00 jboticsource audrinos etc
16 21:15:00 tommost I suppose.
16 21:15:00 jboticsource fpga
16 21:15:00 tommost I was thinking radio-control, actually.
16 21:15:00 tommost But I'm open to autonomy.
16 21:16:00 tommost We'd need to forbid full-body spinners, in that case.
16 21:16:00 tommost And we'd probably want to provide some IR beacons in the arena.
16 21:17:00 jboticsource maybe
16 21:17:00 jboticsource but i think autonimy shoudl be a priority
16 21:17:00 tommost What weight class?
16 21:17:00 tommost (or classes)
16 21:17:00 jboticsource i would like it to be big enough to kill a person
16 21:18:00 tommost I would not.
16 21:18:00 tommost That is an expensive robot.
16 21:18:00 tommost I was thinking 12 lbs, at most.
16 21:18:00 octavious anyone used mozplugger?
16 21:18:00 jboticsource octavious: no i have not
16 21:19:00 jboticsource i would like a saw personally
16 21:19:00 tommost Ubuntu is pretty good that way—it installs Totem to do most of that automatically.
16 21:19:00 tommost Yes, saws are definitely legal.
16 21:19:00 jboticsource but i mean
16 21:19:00 jboticsource big ones
16 21:19:00 jboticsource like
16 21:19:00 jboticsource 4 amp
16 21:19:00 tommost Active weapons are definitely encouraged.
16 21:20:00 tommost How do you fit that on a 12 lb robot?
16 21:20:00 jboticsource make it it a 20 lb robot :)
16 21:20:00 tommost That's doable, I suppose.
16 21:20:00 jboticsource we should have a rule that says that your weapon must be half the weight of your bot lol
16 21:20:00 jboticsource so like
16 21:21:00 jboticsource if u hit somone it will always be spectacular
16 21:21:00 tommost That's not really practical for anyone other than full-body spinners, which would be cheap in an autonomous competition.
16 21:21:00 jboticsource i just want to see massive damge
16 21:22:00 Morasique non-robotics tangent: http://www.rdancer.org/vulnerablevim.html
16 21:24:00 tommost That's really going to be easier in a smaller weight class.
16 21:24:00 tommost Smaller bots tend to be much less hardy.
16 21:24:00 tommost Plus it'll likely be easier to find people to compete.
16 21:25:00 tommost Morasique: Gasp! I should switch to emacs!
16 21:25:00 jboticsource we but smaller bots have less powerfull weapons
16 21:25:00 tommost But they are often relatively more powerful.
16 21:26:00 jboticsource so like
16 21:26:00 jboticsource how would we do armor?
16 21:26:00 tommost As the designer wishes?
16 21:27:00 tommost Armor is heavy.
16 21:27:00 jboticsource at that scale i dont think u could make a good weapon what would pierce armor
16 21:28:00 tommost You don't often have to. You can rip it off or cause internal damage through massive shock.
16 21:28:00 jboticsource i am sure audrinos and some foam would be shock proff
16 21:28:00 jboticsource unless we had to say that u used a HD or something with moving parts....
16 21:29:00 tommost You'd be surprised.
16 21:29:00 jboticsource i would be
16 21:29:00 auchter jboticsource: audrino, definitely shockproof: http://www.istituti.usilu.net/audrinof/images/foto.jpg
16 21:29:00 auchter (yes, i know you meant arduino)
16 21:30:00 tommost http://www.westernalliedrobotics.com/NWHE2008/NWHE12lbRnd1.html
16 21:31:00 tommost Although those aren't autonomous.
16 21:31:00 tommost Autonomous bots would need sensors, which would make them more vulnerable.
16 21:33:00 Morasique tommost: yes. yes you should
16 21:33:00 jboticsource we could have an autonimous component
16 21:34:00 tommost Like, both?
16 21:34:00 tommost That's probably a good idea.
16 21:35:00 jboticsource yea
16 21:35:00 tommost What might be neat is if we had a 1 lb or 3 lb autonomous competition and a 12 lb radio-controlled one.
16 21:35:00 jboticsource could see that
16 21:37:00 auchter i hope some common sense restrictions (e.g. no projectiles) will be in place...
16 21:37:00 tommost Of course.
16 21:37:00 jboticsource maybe
16 21:37:00 tommost Likely no fire as well.
16 21:37:00 jboticsource but we could have an open class
16 21:37:00 tommost Generally it's "no tethered projectiles", but noone uses projectiles anyway.
16 21:40:00 tommost auchter: What is your take on all this?
16 21:42:00 auchter i like robots
16 21:43:00 tommost ...and?
16 21:43:00 auchter though i have to say i'm not all that big on the destructive element
16 21:43:00 auchter it's a better idea than legos, though
16 21:44:00 tommost Would you be more interested in sumo robotics?
16 21:44:00 jboticsource sumo in lego works
16 21:45:00 jboticsource combot in lego is slighlty hard with pure lego
16 21:45:00 jboticsource as it is hard to cause acutall damage
16 21:45:00 tommost I'd prefer to not do either in Lego exclusively. Not that I'd forbid either one.
16 21:45:00 jboticsource pure lego sumo is ok
16 21:46:00 tommost I already have some nice non-Lego sumo parts...
16 21:46:00 jboticsource classes man
16 21:46:00 jboticsource it is all about the classes
16 21:47:00 tommost I don't think that having a bunch of classes is a good idea. Rose is small enough that we may have difficulty filling just a few.
16 21:47:00 jboticsource i think that if we change our focus a bit and have some sumo etc, that we will get more ppl
16 21:47:00 jboticsource and we can do some marketing
16 21:47:00 jboticsource which i can handle
16 21:48:00 jboticsource also i will get that 15000 back for the team
16 21:48:00 jboticsource we will be able to sponser sumo teams maybe
16 21:48:00 jboticsource or at least the expensive parts
16 21:48:00 tommost I'd say that we definitely want some tiny combat robots—those would be cool to watch.
16 21:48:00 tommost Yeah, it would be easy for the club to sponsor sumo.
16 21:48:00 tommost Since it's non-destructive.
16 21:49:00 jboticsource yea
16 21:49:00 jboticsource or maybe they dogfight
16 21:49:00 tommost ?
16 21:49:00 jboticsource and have like a button that they need to press
16 21:49:00 jboticsource on the oponent
16 21:49:00 jboticsource to turn them off
16 21:49:00 tommost Oh.
16 21:49:00 tommost Meh.
16 21:49:00 tommost Sumo is more interesting.
16 21:50:00 jboticsource just throwing stuff out there
16 22:04:00 tommost So what classes are we thinking of?
16 22:04:00 jboticsource women mostly
16 22:04:00 jboticsource and robots
16 22:04:00 jboticsource and drinking
16 22:04:00 tommost ...
16 22:05:00 jboticsource vices mostly
16 22:06:00 jboticsource but combat
16 22:06:00 jboticsource is good
16 22:06:00 jboticsource or how about a triathaon?
16 22:06:00 jboticsource sumo
16 22:06:00 tommost I like 3 lbs autonomous combat, 12 lbs RC combat, and sumo of some sort.
16 22:06:00 jboticsource sumo + combat + something else
16 22:07:00 tommost RC combat and autonomous combat are vastly different enough.
16 22:07:00 jboticsource racing
16 22:07:00 jboticsource autonimous racing
16 22:07:00 tommost That's really random.
16 22:07:00 jboticsource na
16 22:08:00 jboticsource it makes sence
16 22:08:00 jboticsource cuz it is more mechanically oriented
16 22:08:00 jboticsource cuz u could do a transmission
16 22:08:00 jboticsource etc
16 22:09:00 tommost 12 lb RC combat robotics is already mechanically oriented.
16 22:09:00 jboticsource meh
16 22:09:00 tommost Autonomous racing is enough to occupy an entire team.
16 22:09:00 jboticsource maybe with weapons
16 22:10:00 jboticsource na
16 22:10:00 jboticsource indy 5.0
16 22:10:00 tommost Realistically, three classes is pushing it.
16 22:10:00 jboticsource http://journals.aol.com/jmenomeno/brickjournal/entries/2007/07/07/brickworld-indy-5.0-racing/1233
16 22:11:00 jboticsource but the robot needs to do all 3 things with no mods
16 22:11:00 jboticsource so like u could have a trans that woudl shift for sumo
16 22:11:00 jboticsource and use it for racing
16 22:11:00 tommost They are extremely different competitions.
16 22:11:00 jboticsource and have an acceleration routine for fighting
16 22:11:00 jboticsource yea
16 22:11:00 jboticsource that is the fun
16 22:11:00 tommost A good sumo robot needs lots of torque.
16 22:11:00 jboticsource yes
16 22:11:00 jboticsource TORQUE
16 22:12:00 jboticsource NEEDS MORE TORQUE
16 22:12:00 jboticsource ALWAYS TORQUE
16 22:12:00 tommost Also, a low profile.
16 22:12:00 jboticsource MUHHHHHHAHAHAA TORQUE
16 22:12:00 tommost cringes
16 22:12:00 jboticsource LOW PROFILE AND TORQUE
16 22:12:00 jboticsource LORQUE
16 22:13:00 tommost Stop the capitals god please stop!!!
16 22:13:00 jboticsource ok
16 22:13:00 auchter $ \tau = r \times F $
16 22:13:00 jboticsource what did that do?
16 22:13:00 tommost That was LaTeX.
16 22:13:00 jboticsource ok
16 22:13:00 auchter no, that was torque
16 22:13:00 tommost Yes.
16 22:13:00 auchter indeed
16 22:17:00 jboticsource no
16 22:17:00 jboticsource this is torque
16 22:17:00 jboticsource http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkl8U2xgSes&feature=related
16 22:17:00 jboticsource http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADgOKQyJjh4&NR=1
16 22:18:00 tommost http://youtube.com/watch?v=eBGIQ7ZuuiU&fmt=18
16 22:18:00 jboticsource fuck you
16 22:19:00 tommost It was inevitable.
16 22:19:00 jboticsource i cant belive u RD me
16 22:20:00 jboticsource We're no strangers to love
16 22:20:00 jboticsource You know the rules and so do I
16 22:20:00 jboticsource A full commitment's what I'm thinking of
16 22:20:00 jboticsource You wouldn't get this from any other guy
16 22:20:00 jboticsource I just wanna tell you how I'm feeling
16 22:20:00 tommost Someone just learned something about IRC...
16 22:20:00 auchter hah.
16 22:20:00 jboticsource just so u could sing along....
16 22:22:00 jboticsource anyway
16 22:53:00 Morasique at first i thought i missed something, and then i realized it was an hour of robotics talk culminating in a rick roll and i felt better
16 23:05:00 auchter luckily i skipped most of that
17 00:29:00 Morasique http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/1
17 00:30:00 Morasique oh cool. this would've been handy yesterday: http://downforeveryoneorjustme.com/www.google.com
17 00:32:00 andy753421 also useful is: /etc/hosts: '64.233.167.99 google_ip google_ip'
17 10:54:00 Morasique i feel i need to share with you all what may be the worst code i have ever written. naturally it's in C: http://pastebin.com/m3b92624b
17 10:55:00 Morasique it's only for testing, so don't get too alarmed
17 13:02:00 Morasique i think firefox 3 just launched, i'm having trouble getting to their website to confirm it, but that's probably confirmation in itself
17 16:12:00 Morasique something neat for latex people: http://andrewjpage.com/index.php?/archives/55-Algorithms-in-Latex.html
17 16:29:00 auchter Morasique: don't sully C's name by calling that abomination of yours "C"
17 16:29:00 auchter in other worse, C is not the preferred nomenclature; C++, please
17 16:29:00 auchter s/worse/words/
17 16:41:00 andy753421 Is that C++? Google seems to thing it's just stupid Microsoft code..
17 16:42:00 auchter yeah, i actually searched for __try after i said that
17 16:42:00 auchter and i am ashamed to say (i blame lack of sleep) that the line "length-->0" confused me supremely
17 16:42:00 auchter until i realized that a normal person would have written that as "length-- > 0"
17 16:43:00 auchter i thought it was some sort of super-struct
17 16:43:00 auchter haha
17 16:45:00 andy753421 personally, i'm a little confused by how 'return c' can raise an exception... but then again, it is from Microsoft
17 16:46:00 auchter i'm still not sure what the function does
17 16:48:00 andy753421 oh, so the finally loop just gets executed before the return I think, but i'm not sure why you wouldn't just put that before the return and skip the whole 'try catch' thing
17 16:49:00 Morasique it's C i think
17 16:49:00 Morasique and you can't put it before the return because that block changes the pointer that gets returned
17 16:49:00 auchter that's pretty sloppy not checking the return value from malloc()
17 16:49:00 auchter and furthermore, what?
17 16:50:00 Morasique i originally had the return at the end but it was return c-length;, then i realized i zeroed out length in the while loop :)
17 16:50:00 Morasique i need to return c before i move it to the end of the string
17 16:50:00 Morasique that's what the try/finally does
17 16:51:00 andy753421 why are you not using memset?
17 16:51:00 auchter andy753421: the question is why is he writing all "A's"?
17 16:51:00 auchter and calloc initializes the array with all \0 anyway
17 16:52:00 andy753421 yea, that last \0 is pointlesss
17 16:52:00 Morasique oh, i didn't know it initialized with \0. could've saved a line :)
17 16:52:00 Morasique it doesn't matter what it is, it just needed to be filled with legal hex characters
17 16:52:00 Morasique and i thought memset was c++
17 16:52:00 auchter no, it's in string.h
17 16:52:00 Morasique oh
17 16:53:00 Morasique i also have no idea how to use it
17 16:53:00 Morasique oh. that's totally cheating
17 16:53:00 Morasique screw that
17 16:53:00 Morasique the real question is why am i not using python: http://pastebin.com/m56a1370c
17 16:55:00 Morasique memset has totally ruined my day, i was proud of that function before :)
17 16:57:00 auchter i've got a problem where i'll write something and think it's a good idea at the time
17 16:57:00 auchter the next day, i look at it and begin to vomit
17 16:57:00 Morasique i have that problem, but instead of me vomiting it's other people
17 16:58:00 auchter i see more of my bad code than other people, so it's more of a problem for me
17 16:59:00 Morasique there was an article on coding horror about how developers tend to horde their code until they're sure it's perfect because they don't want other people to see their mistakes; the number one requested feature for google code is a way to obliterate files and their revision histories
17 16:59:00 Morasique whereas i put mine on pastebin and send people links
17 17:00:00 auchter i'm actually at that very stage right now, haha
17 17:22:00 auchter also, arg(3) is awesome
17 17:49:00 andy753421 Morasique: if you use glib, you can do g_strnfill(length, 'A')
17 17:50:00 andy753421 Glib has everything: http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/stable/glib-String-Utility-Functions.html#g-strnfill
17 17:54:00 auchter Morasique: if you can use plan9's c library, you could do s_nappend(string, 'A', length)
17 18:05:00 Morasique i can't use either, but thanks :)
17 18:08:00 auchter why not?
17 18:24:00 Morasique i can't guarantee either would be installed on target machines; they're certainly not installed on the machine i was using
17 18:25:00 andy753421 Morasique: I think your first mistake was listing 'Microsoft ???' on your resume :)
17 18:25:00 tommost Yes, why would you do that to yourself?
17 18:25:00 auchter yeah, my resume does not mention microsoft, or any of its products, at all
17 18:26:00 Morasique i listed no microsoft :)
17 18:26:00 Morasique i mentioned that i know windows, but i put linux on there too
17 18:32:00 auchter eh, i figure most places just kind of assume that you know how to use windows
17 18:32:00 auchter and if not, clicking around like an epileptic monkey will normally yield the same results as a windows user
17 18:33:00 auchter speaking of companies and horrible software, i saw someone at work today with two 24" flat panels running compiz with all his terminals transparent
17 18:33:00 auchter i almost broke down crying.
17 18:34:00 tommost Ooooo....
17 18:34:00 andy753421 did you run up and push backspace while he was spinning it?
17 18:34:00 tommost I'm jealous. The crappy ATI card in my computer at work means that I can't use Compiz.
17 18:35:00 Morasique i like using windows at work because i'm better than most people at windows so i look smart; not so much with linux
17 18:36:00 tommost I usually get pissed off at all the little balloons popping up from the taskbar and just start getting pissed at everything.
17 18:36:00 Morasique you can disable those, but i like them
17 18:36:00 auchter i don't care about appearances, i just can't be productive in windows
17 18:36:00 Morasique same concept as gnome alerts but poorly implemented
17 18:36:00 tommost The ones that say "I see wireless networks"?
17 18:37:00 tommost They must die.
17 18:37:00 Morasique :)
17 18:37:00 Morasique you should be able to blacklist specific ones, that would own
17 18:37:00 auchter i sit there clicking through an incredibly deep heirachy, trying to find a specific java file
17 18:37:00 tommost Especially as Windows in apparently incapable of connecting to my Linksys wireless router.
17 18:37:00 tommost Go figure.
17 18:37:00 auchter find . | grep java$ | grep whatever is so much easier
17 18:37:00 tommost s/in/is/
17 18:37:00 auchter tommost: wait, what model?
17 18:37:00 andy753421 auchter: ls **/*.java
17 18:37:00 tommost WRK54G or something like that.
17 18:37:00 Morasique i wrote a batch script today. i don't know if you all have ever written batch scripts before or have just used linux forever, but you should experience it at some point
17 18:37:00 auchter andy753421: i like find ;)
17 18:38:00 Morasique i love **, it's my hero
17 18:38:00 auchter tommost: oh wait, never mind... it's actually a d-link
17 18:38:00 tommost Morasique: I have written batch scripts.
17 18:38:00 auchter tommost: i've got a d-link wireless access point at home that my dad's laptop refuses to work with
17 18:39:00 auchter tommost: the linksys it works with, oddly enough...
17 18:39:00 tommost I have resolved that I will never write one that does anything more than call a Python/whatever script.
17 18:39:00 auchter i was wondering if there was some common thread of windows stupidity or not
17 18:39:00 tommost BAT files make bash look good.
17 18:39:00 auchter python makes rc look good
17 18:39:00 tommost auchter: Strangely, my laptop used to be able to connect to it.
17 18:39:00 Morasique batch files make bash look like it was delivered unto us by god
17 18:39:00 tommost And my rommate's won't connect either.
17 18:40:00 tommost No problem with Linux, though.
17 18:40:00 andy753421 Bash makes Bash look good
17 18:40:00 auchter yeah, i can connect to it just fine, and his laptop works with every other access point he's ever tried
17 18:40:00 auchter it just absolutely refuses to work with that particular one
17 18:41:00 tommost I can't get mine to connect to RHIT-1X either, not that I've tried very hard.
17 18:41:00 tommost So the general way that wireless simply doesn't work in Windows makes those damn pop-ups extra annoying.
17 18:41:00 tommost And then there's the one telling me that it is safe to eject my Ethernet port.
17 18:45:00 auchter muahaha: $ echo -n play | 9p write umd/ctl
17 18:47:00 Morasique i got to 9p and stopped reading in dismay
17 18:53:00 andy753421 auchter: you should mount it with the kernel module
17 18:53:00 andy753421 (and you should post the source code)
17 18:53:00 auchter so, the kernel module has never really worked for me
17 18:54:00 auchter i've mounted it with 9pfuse, but some weird stuff happens as a result of me not implementing wstat (but that should be handled...)
17 18:54:00 auchter i'll give access to my svn repo in a day or two, i'm trying to get some things cleaned up
17 18:54:00 auchter but it plays music :)
17 18:55:00 auchter and the fact i can do this: find /home/auchtemm/downloads/Morton\ Feldman\ -\ \(1981\)\ Patterns\ in\ a\ Chromatic\ Field/ | 9p write umd/playlist
17 18:55:00 auchter is just bloody awesome
17 18:59:00 auchter if only 9p(1) had an append option...
17 19:17:00 andy753421 oh, here's a question, can firefox 3 actually resume canceled downloads yet?
17 19:19:00 tommost Find me something worth downloading and we'll find out.
17 19:23:00 auchter tommost: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/plan9/download/plan9.iso.bz2
17 19:24:00 tommost I already have that.
17 19:24:00 tommost Also, I was wondering whether you'd pick Plan9 or Gentoo.
17 19:24:00 tommost (Before you start: I have a Gentoo CD as well.)
17 19:25:00 auchter you don't have that version of plan9
17 19:25:00 tommost Irrelevant.
17 19:27:00 Morasique auchter: so what's this thing you made?
17 19:28:00 auchter basically something like mpd, which communicates over 9p
17 19:28:00 tommost Why not just use mpd?
17 19:29:00 auchter because it has some insane protocol it uses
17 19:29:00 auchter and where's the fun in that?
17 19:29:00 tommost Oh, okay. I will not contest your definition of "fun".
17 19:31:00 auchter and plus it's pretty elegant
17 19:31:00 auchter even though i don't use them, to save a playlist: cp /mnt/umd/playlist ~/playlists/aplaylist
17 19:32:00 auchter to restore: cp ~/playlists/aplaylist /mnt/umd/playlist
17 19:37:00 Morasique that's cool. plan9's filesystem-ness is pretty handy
17 19:41:00 auchter wait, did Morasique just compliment plan 9?
17 19:44:00 Morasique yes, it has one handy feature, like how C lets you manipulate strings efficiently. let's not go crazy and call either of them good or even usable :)
17 19:44:00 tommost No, I think that he went to the bathroom and some gnome sat down at his desk and set out to discredit his name. He's working up a lengthy blog post about the awesomeness of Microsoft(R) Visual C++(R).
17 19:44:00 auchter waits for tommost to criticize C's strings
17 19:44:00 tommost I don't think that they should be called strings. They're buffers, not strings.
17 19:45:00 Morasique i was going to say character array but i felt bad
17 19:45:00 tommost Strings hold characters. Buffers hold bytes.
17 19:46:00 auchter i think you're a bit unclear about the difference between C and libc
17 19:46:00 Morasique i find that C's strings are multi-faceted; they can hold anything. Like portions of the current stack frame my method feels free to annihilates without mercy
17 19:47:00 tommost Oh, yes, and libc is really crappy.
17 19:47:00 Blazeix Has anybody with the Dell M70 successfully run the Spore Creature Creator?
17 19:47:00 auchter also, perhaps a bit unclear that there is not one "libc"
17 19:47:00 tommost I am entirely aware of it.
17 19:48:00 tommost I was referring to the standard C library.
17 19:48:00 tommost string.h, etc. in its full strtok() glory.
17 19:49:00 Morasique Blazeix: you should ask later, when tempers have cooled and tommost lays bloody and broken at auchter's feet
17 19:49:00 auchter yes, it sucks, and no one is forcing you to use it
17 19:49:00 auchter doesn't really count as a criticism against C, though
17 19:49:00 tommost Can you point me to a good intro to glib?
17 19:50:00 auchter http://library.gnome.org/devel/glib/stable/glib-fundamentals.html
17 19:55:00 tommost G_OS_BEOS!
17 20:08:00 auchter hey, i don't want to hear any BeOS hate in here
17 20:08:00 tommost Hate? I love BeOS!
17 20:09:00 auchter alright then, we're on the same page there; though i only ran it for a little bit as my nvidia card wasn't well supported years ago
17 20:10:00 tommost I ran it just a bit on a computer with sufficiently obsolete hardware to be well-supported.
17 20:11:00 tommost I never did much of anything useful with it, though.
17 20:11:00 auchter nor did i, but strangely i remember liking it
17 20:12:00 tommost Yeah, it's inexplicable why I liked it so much.
17 20:12:00 tommost Probably because it was so speedy.
17 20:13:00 Morasique you just walked right into a gentoo pitch, but i think everyone's too lazy to make it
17 20:15:00 tommost Morasique: The people around here don't seem to make too much of Gentoo's reputed speediness.
17 20:15:00 tommost I don't think that I was in any danger.
17 20:15:00 auchter indeed, speed isn't the reason i use it
17 20:15:00 auchter the difference between gentoo and any other competent distro in terms of speed should be minimal
17 20:17:00 Morasique that's currently my favorite feature, my laptop takes an eternity to boot
17 20:18:00 tommost Have you installed much on it yet?
17 20:18:00 Morasique i should try installing hardy fresh, the upgrade is what killed my boot time
17 20:18:00 Morasique my desktop? everything i want on it i think, it's mainly a file server
17 20:18:00 Morasique and i put apache/mysql on there
17 20:19:00 tommost Why did you pick MySQL, out of curiosity?
17 20:22:00 Morasique i've always used it
17 20:31:00 Blazeix Morasique: you should install Arch. It's speedy
17 20:31:00 Blazeix I've already got Zeta using it.
17 20:32:00 tommost I've Postgres to be easier to administer.
17 20:32:00 tommost s/ve/ve found/
17 20:32:00 Blazeix I've heard good things about Postgres, mainly from povilusr.
17 20:33:00 tommost It seems more Unixy to me.
17 20:34:00 Morasique postgres was a pain when i had to use it in the spring, but i suspect that's just 'cause i'm too lazy to learn it
17 20:35:00 Morasique and i'm still learning gentoo, give me a while before i try arch :)
17 20:37:00 Blazeix Morasique: Oh, when did you install gentoo?
17 20:43:00 auchter arch sucks
17 20:44:00 Morasique Blazeix: fine. LEAVE
17 20:44:00 Morasique auchter: why?
17 20:44:00 tommost auchter: Expertly timed, that.
17 20:44:00 Morasique yes, i noted his cowardice
17 20:50:00 Morasique "/bin/sh: /usr/bin/vi: No such file or directory
17 20:50:00 Morasique "
17 20:50:00 Morasique MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA
17 20:50:00 tommost I suppose Gentoo has upsides...
17 20:50:00 Morasique heck yes
17 20:50:00 Morasique vim has never sullied my pure system
17 20:51:00 Morasique i have no idea why crontab is trying to use vi, i definitely have emacs specified
18 01:13:00 jboticsource it is now your job to entertain me
18 01:13:00 jboticsource begin the amusement!
18 01:18:00 amusementbot dances
18 01:18:00 jboticsource it is a good start
18 01:18:00 jboticsource amusementbot: i require more!
18 01:18:00 Morasique usually tommost handles our amusement, i blame him
18 01:19:00 jboticsource he does amuse me as well
18 01:19:00 jboticsource tommost: amuse us
18 02:59:00 jboticsource and he has failed!\
18 08:26:00 auchter andy753422: "auchter: ls **/*.java", at least on bash, that doesn't go deeper than one level...
18 08:26:00 auchter so it's not really a replacement for "find ."
18 08:37:00 Morasique auchter: use zsh like a civilized person
18 08:41:00 auchter i should, but i never do for some reason
18 08:42:00 auchter really, i'd like to use rc as a shell (not just for scripting), but the lack of completion (in the shell), and command history prevent me from using it
18 09:43:00 Morasique anybody else using firefox 3?
18 10:02:00 andy753422 Morasique: didn't somebody say that Firefox 3's address bar sucked?
18 10:02:00 andy753422 oh wait, that was me that said that
18 11:06:00 andy753421 auchter: urxvtd is memory leaking for me, is it doing so for you as well? (for i in {1..100}; do urxvtc -e true; done)
18 12:32:00 Morasique andy753421: no love for awesomebar? i haven't decided yet, i'm used to typing what firefox 2 wanted to get the right page, which tends to not be what awesomebar wants, but i think it'll be ok once i get used to it. my issue is if i don't have www. or a protocol at the start, it doesn't seem to work. if i just type "google.com" and hit enter nothing happens, it doesn't try to connect or anything, but "www.google.com" or "http:
18 12:33:00 andy753421 wait, but does www.google.com\n work?
18 13:10:00 Morasique yeah, as long as it starts with www or http:// it's fine
18 13:10:00 Morasique i assumed everyone had this problem, maybe it's just something wrong with mine
18 14:59:00 Morasique exchange is driving me crazy, it even blocks access to exes from outlook. it is apparently impossible to send an executable through exchange
18 15:06:00 andy753421 Morasique: works just fine if you use Mutt
18 15:09:00 Morasique wow, so it really is just all the user interfaces being stupid. evil microsoft
18 15:09:00 Morasique on an unrelated note, where is the lug keyserver? i can't find the link
18 15:09:00 andy753421 https://lug.phire.org/gpg/index.php
18 15:10:00 andy753421 linked from http://lug.phire.org/wiki/GPG
18 15:11:00 Morasique ah. that makes sense
18 15:11:00 Morasique neat, i got the little traffic guard thingy in firefox 3 telling me the certificate is bad :)
18 15:12:00 andy753421 bad, or just not from verisign?
18 15:26:00 Morasique i didn't read it, it's the same error we always get. i think it's 'cause the domain is wrong, it might be because the signer is untrusted
18 15:27:00 Morasique we've talked about it before i think
18 15:28:00 andy753421 it should be on the correct domain now (since it's off my server at the moment)
18 15:32:00 auchter the LUG should start signing certificates, and convince IAIT to distribute our certificate on new laptops by default
18 15:33:00 auchter though i don't even think they distribute their own cert on new laptops...
18 15:44:00 Morasique auchter: i think they do, although distributing ours would probably be less likely
18 15:45:00 Morasique andy753421: i rechecked, it's because the signer isn't trusted
18 16:01:00 Morasique reddit went open source yesterday. i quote from a comment in their code: "god this shit is disorganized and confusing"
18 16:02:00 Morasique grep hack **/* | wc -l is only 14, i'm depressed
18 16:04:00 Morasique i never realized reddit was written in python, maybe they're not total idiots
18 16:30:00 auchter much to the inevitable disdain of anyone who ever wants to use the scripts i wrote today, they're all in rc ;)
18 18:47:00 Morasique i have no idea how, but somehow i have two packages install on gentoo that block each other
18 18:47:00 Morasique if i try to update world i get an error that each one is blocking the other and can't be updated
18 18:47:00 auchter which packages?
18 18:48:00 Morasique sys-apps/mktemp and sys-apps/coreutils-6.10
18 18:48:00 Morasique i have no idea how mktemp could block anything, unless it's part of coreutils or something
18 18:49:00 Morasique i suppose i'm unmerging mktemp, even though i use it. hopefully it's part of coreutils, or i'll try to get it some other way
18 18:49:00 andy753421 Morasique: a when two packages block each other it means that they provide the same functionality, and yes, coreutils started shipping with mktemp so you have two packages that are installed that when updated will try to do the same thing
18 18:50:00 Morasique ok, that makes sense. thanks
18 18:50:00 andy753421 blocking packages are really annoying, but most of the time you just need to delete the old one
18 18:51:00 Morasique yeah, i just couldn't figure out how i got them blocking each other in the first place
18 18:51:00 andy753421 ah, yea, it will never actually install blocking packages, but it will crash out if you try to :)
18 18:52:00 auchter yeah, python does that
18 18:56:00 Morasique I like that there's an entire section in the gentoo handbook titled "When Portage is Complaining..."
18 19:22:00 Morasique CPEs make me sad: http://www.clifford.at/bfcpu/bfcpu.html
18 19:34:00 octaviou2 ha
18 19:34:00 octaviou2 thats rediculous
18 19:34:00 Morasique so many cpe projects are :)
18 20:18:00 Morasique there should be a way for configure scripts to share checks with each other, i'm emerging 95 packages and they're all checking for the same 100 things, it's a huge waste of time
18 20:21:00 Morasique one of these packages is named cracklib. awesome
18 20:39:00 Morasique where are ebuilds stored at?
18 20:40:00 Morasique oh, nm
18 20:40:00 Morasique for some reason i suck at googling gentoo stuff
18 20:48:00 andy753421 Morasique: there used to be something called 'confcache' that did that, but I think it broke things a lot so they took it out
18 20:49:00 andy753421 also, http://www.gentoo.org/doc/, http://gentoo-wiki.com/, and http://forums.gentoo.org/ are you friends
18 20:58:00 Morasique yeah, i like gentoo-wiki, i just couldn't find it for some reason, i finally stumbled on it
18 20:59:00 andy753421 huh, it's usually one of the first google results for "gentoo <foo>"
18 21:03:00 Morasique "it" in that last thing i said referred to the location of ebuilds, not gentoo-wiki
18 21:03:00 andy753421 ah, that makes more sense then
18 21:05:00 Morasique is the FEATURES variable in /etc/make.conf modifiable as an environment variable?
18 21:05:00 Morasique i'm not sure if that made sense at all, but i hope it did
18 21:05:00 Morasique like can I do FEATURES=foo emerge bar to add foo to the list temporarily?
18 21:06:00 Morasique i got an error from emerge that said to do that, but it doesn't seem to actually work at all, i had to change it in /etc/make.conf to make it work
18 21:07:00 andy753421 sortof.. there's an order that portage variables get used in but generally environment variables override make.conf
18 21:07:00 andy753421 how did you go about doing that?
18 21:08:00 Morasique doing what?
18 21:08:00 Morasique i did pretty much what i said, i prefixed the emerge command with the features change
18 21:08:00 andy753421 um, can you be more specific?
18 21:08:00 Morasique the exact command was FEATURES="-unmerge-orphans" emerge cracklib
18 21:08:00 Morasique which is what emerge told me to run
18 21:09:00 Morasique but FEATURES="-unmerge-orphans" emerge --info | grep FEATURES showed unmerge-orphans still in the list
18 21:09:00 Morasique so I added FEATURES="-unmerge-orphans" to /etc/make.conf temporarily and it stopped showing up in the list, and emerge cracklib worked
18 21:09:00 andy753421 that's strange
18 21:11:00 Morasique yes. other people seem to have had the same problem from what google said; i can't find any mention of actually being able to change FEATURES as an environment variable like emerge told me too, it seems like it's not actually a feature but then i have no idea why it would tell me to do that
18 21:12:00 andy753421 there's a setting in make.conf(5) called 'USE_ORDER" that sets the precedence
18 21:14:00 andy753421 you can definitely change FEATURES as an env variable.. 'FEATURES="-unmerge-orphans" emerge --info | grep FEATURES' works for me
18 21:14:00 Morasique oh. wtf
18 21:14:00 Morasique i don't have use_order set, and environment is top priority by default
18 21:15:00 Morasique does emerge --info | grep FEATURES show unmerge-orphans?
18 21:16:00 andy753421 not when I do it with FEATURES="-unmerge-orphans"
18 21:16:00 Morasique i mean if you don't include the environment variable
18 21:16:00 andy753421 but it does when I do it normally
18 21:16:00 Morasique that's very odd
18 21:16:00 andy753421 does 'FEATURES="keepwork" emerge --info | grep FEATURES' add keepwork for you?
18 21:17:00 Morasique no
18 21:17:00 andy753421 what version of portage?
18 21:17:00 Morasique 2.1.4.4
18 21:18:00 andy753421 ok, i'm on 2.1.5.5 but I don't think that would matter
18 21:18:00 andy753421 you could try 'export FEATURES="keepwork"' and then try 'emerge --info | grep FEATURES'
18 21:18:00 Morasique no, i tried that earlier
18 21:19:00 Morasique ok, i'm really confused. x=test echo $x shows nothing on either of my systems
18 21:19:00 Morasique that should work shouldn't it?
18 21:19:00 andy753421 also try 'FEATURES="keepwork" set | grep -a FEATURES'
18 21:19:00 Morasique oh, that works. why doesn't my echo work?
18 21:21:00 andy753421 because 'x=test echo $x' sets x to test only for the command echo but the variable substitution is done by the shell echo
18 21:21:00 Morasique oh, right
18 21:21:00 octavious Morasique: are you using sudo?
18 21:21:00 octavious sudo doesnt like transferring env vars
18 21:21:00 octavious and rightly so. as a security precaution.
18 21:22:00 Morasique i was, but switching to root and trying it doesn't help either
18 21:23:00 Morasique oh wait, i'm really stupid
18 21:23:00 Morasique you're right, that was it
18 21:23:00 Morasique i switched to root but i still had emerge aliased to sudo emerge
18 21:23:00 Morasique good call
18 21:23:00 octavious heh, i have done the same thing.
18 21:36:00 auchter Morasique: i was going to do that for the digilent design competition, but obviously i ran out of time
18 21:36:00 auchter and by 'ran out of time' i do indeed mean 'never started'
18 21:36:00 andy753421 here's a scripting question: make an executable that starts a subshell with a specific set of environmental variables but only calls exec once
18 21:36:00 auchter though i think i have a sheet of paper or two with the datapath and controller drawn out in pencil
18 21:37:00 auchter the cool thing was that the instructions were kept in ascii verbatim...
18 21:42:00 auchter also, xine-lib sucks at gapless playback
18 21:52:00 octavious this mint shisha is delicious
18 22:02:00 Morasique auchter: that's the best kind of run out of time
18 22:03:00 Morasique andy753421: why? out of curiosity
18 22:11:00 Morasique this is the greatest video i have ever seen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKzilLsUZCw
18 22:11:00 Morasique it's for the bus line in lafayette
18 22:17:00 auchter Morasique: i hate you, as i was just bus-rolled
18 22:17:00 auchter that was horrible. just horrible.
18 22:17:00 auchter (note the use of two full-stops for emphasis)
18 22:18:00 Morasique also amazing
18 22:18:00 Morasique .
18 22:55:00 Morasique google map's directions to get to my work have changed, they're worse now
18 22:55:00 Morasique that's weird
18 22:57:00 Morasique i like this too, i found this last week when i asked for directions to subway: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=d&hl=en&geocode=1663875616871759680,40.453447,-86.922914&saddr=3000+Kent+Ave,+West+Lafayette,+IN+47906&daddr=1060+Sagamore+Pkwy+W,+West+Lafayette,+IN+47906+(Subway)&mra=pe&mrcr=0&sll=40.460161,-86.893909&sspn=0.110888,0.260239&ie=UTF8&z=16
18 22:57:00 Morasique i actually followed them convinced there must be some reason. there isn't
18 23:02:00 Morasique i just realized my desktop is an hour ahead for some reason, irssi just claimed the date changed
18 23:02:00 Morasique this explains why when i reboot it freaks out that my root partition's modified stamp is in the future
18 23:07:00 tommost Morasique: You shouldn't need www or http: in awesomebar.
18 23:07:00 Morasique as in, it works fine for you without them?
18 23:07:00 tommost Yes.
18 23:07:00 Morasique hmm. one of my plugins must be messing it up, i'll have to experiment with it
18 23:07:00 Morasique thanks
18 23:07:00 tommost And I'm certain that that is the intended behavior.
18 23:07:00 tommost Reddit uses web.py, right?
18 23:08:00 Morasique i don't know what that is
18 23:09:00 andy753421 Morasique: I'm using a software package called Gempak that is made up of a set of commands but they need special env settings before being executed
18 23:09:00 tommost It's a Python web framework. I believe that I first heard of Reddit because it uses web.py.
18 23:09:00 Morasique oh. it uses Pylons, i don't know about web.py
18 23:09:00 andy753421 so I figured the easiest way to do that would be to make a command called 'gempak' that set the settings in a subshell which I could then use untill I'm done and then hit CTRL-D
18 23:09:00 tommost Oh.
18 23:09:00 tommost I could swear that the reddit guys wrote web.py.
18 23:10:00 tommost Maybe they switched.
18 23:10:00 tommost Though that wouldn't make sense.
18 23:11:00 Morasique andy753421: could you just do alias gempak="FOO=val1 BAR=val2 zsh"?
18 23:11:00 Morasique i guess alias gempak="FOO=val1 BAR=val2 $SHELL" would be better
18 23:11:00 andy753421 Morasique: yes, but I want to do it as a command not an alias
18 23:12:00 Morasique what's a command? i assume you don't mean shell script, because i'm seeing an easy solution if you do
18 23:12:00 andy753421 shell script would work
18 23:12:00 auchter how about a function?
18 23:12:00 andy753421 I want it stored in /usr/local/bin/gempak
18 23:13:00 Morasique ah. yeah, shell script sounds logical unless there's some reason not to
18 23:14:00 andy753421 Morasique: You can't do "#!/bin/sh\nFOO=var BAR=bal $SHELL" because that calls exec twice (once for #!/bin/sh, once for $SHELL) that's where the trick comes in
18 23:14:00 Morasique oh. i missed that before, why is calling exec once important?
18 23:15:00 andy753421 because I said so, damnet
18 23:15:00 Morasique i don't suppose leaving off the shebang is sufficient? it'll work without it
18 23:15:00 Morasique mmk
18 23:15:00 andy753421 Morasique: I think that defaults to /bin/sh, but I'm not sure
18 23:15:00 Morasique ah
18 23:17:00 andy753421 currently i'm just using #!/bin/sh \n (set up env) \n $SHELL, but I was curious if it was possible to do without the second exec
18 23:19:00 auchter why is it so important that it not be a function or alias, and be a shell script?
18 23:19:00 andy753421 because I said so :P I already know how to do it as a function and as an alias, but I want to know how to do it as a shell script
18 23:19:00 andy753421 also, that makes it universal between shells and users
19 00:15:00 Morasique :D comment in portage: "Failed to import sys! Something is _VERY_ wrong with python."
19 00:15:00 tommost Hehe.
19 00:15:00 tommost Yeah, it does seem like virtually every Python script begins with
19 00:16:00 tommost import os
19 00:16:00 tommost import sys
19 00:24:00 tommost Of course, when you get working on stuff that's part of a larger package or library you don't see those imports so much.
19 08:32:00 auchter ok, one thing that's come to bother me about rc (unless i'm wrong, which i likely am): no return statement.
19 10:05:00 andy753421 auchter: seems you're right "I deleted the builtins export, readonly, break, continue, read, return, set, times and unset because they seem redundant or only marginally useful."
19 10:05:00 andy753421 if they're redundant, I would like to know what the rc alternative for those are..
19 10:27:00 Morasique it's not every day i hear return described as "marginally useful"
19 10:47:00 auchter andy753421: they were apparently in an older version of rc
19 10:48:00 auchter you can still return values, it's not not as readable
19 10:48:00 auchter fn testreturn { $1 = hello }
19 10:48:00 auchter testreturn TESTR
19 10:49:00 auchter echo $TESTR
19 10:54:00 andy753421 can you use that in if statments, and/or make a function short circuit?
19 11:34:00 Morasique auchter: those are return values, it's a mutable parameter, don't make excuses for rc :)
19 12:42:00 auchter Morasique: i assume you meant "aren't", but in my defense, i didn't call it a "return value"
19 12:42:00 auchter i merely said that you can "return values" from a function
19 13:51:00 andy753421 tommost: Is there a '[1,2,3] OPER [2,3,4]' in python that will return [1,2,3,4]?
19 14:26:00 Morasique there is in haskell but i imagine that won't help you
19 16:21:00 auchter andy753421: so rc.vim needs a bit of work, haha
19 16:22:00 auchter i installed it at work where i actually have reasonably long scripts written in rc, and it must have gotten really confused at some point, as it thought half the file was quoted
19 16:22:00 andy753421 hehe, send me a copy of the scirpt
19 16:23:00 auchter i'm home now, but i'll see if i can reproduce it
19 16:24:00 andy753421 alright, did you pull the version off of andy753421.ath.cx? I made a few changes to it last night, but I don't think they would have effected quoting
19 16:24:00 auchter yeah, i did
19 16:25:00 auchter hm, i can't see to reproduce the problem here...
19 16:25:00 andy753421 i've been meaning to make rc/mk script to use as testcases but haven't gotten around to it
19 16:26:00 auchter also, should variables be highlighted when they're in a string since they're not replaced? (ie. echo '$FOO')
19 16:27:00 andy753421 probably not, I think that's just because i was using ' and " as the same
19 16:27:00 auchter ah, ok
19 17:20:00 tommost andy753421: sorted(set([1,2,3]) | set([1,2,3]))
19 17:21:00 tommost Er, sorted(set([1,2,3]) | set([2,3,4]))
19 17:21:00 auchter python's so verbose... (union '(1 2 3) '(2 3 4))
19 17:22:00 andy753421 lisp is so verbose... [1,2,3] | [2,3,4]
19 17:23:00 tommost Well, are they actually supposed to be sets or does order matter?
19 17:23:00 andy753421 or.. sort <(seq 1 3) <(seq 2 4) | uniq
19 17:23:00 auchter andy753421: i'm pretty sure you're the only one in here who thought of that.
19 17:23:00 andy753421 tommost: they are stored as arrays
19 17:24:00 tommost Is the order significant?
19 17:24:00 andy753421 I don't think so
19 17:24:00 tommost Then just store them as sets; it'll be more efficient.
19 17:24:00 andy753421 (it's not actually my code, i'm using ruby)
19 17:25:00 tommost How would you do it in Ruby?
19 17:25:00 andy753421 combined = array1 | array2
19 17:25:00 tommost Ah. Is that stable?
19 17:25:00 andy753421 stable?
19 17:25:00 tommost So far as order is concerned.
19 17:26:00 andy753421 I think so.. http://ruby-doc.org/core/classes/Array.html#M000325
19 17:27:00 andy753421 although, i still don't really know what you mean by stable
19 17:27:00 andy753421 it certainly does the same thing every time
19 17:28:00 tommost Well, what I meant was whether the first operand's order was imposed regardless of the second's.
19 17:28:00 tommost Like a stable sort.
19 17:29:00 tommost Okay, the | operator makes sense, though it seems odd on an array, but zip() as a method is just odd.
19 17:31:00 andy753421 how is that odd?
19 17:32:00 tommost It's about combining two data structures, not mutating the one there.
19 17:32:00 auchter yeah, i'm going to have to agree with tom
19 17:33:00 andy753421 most ruby methods do not mutate the arguments
19 17:33:00 andy753421 er, objects
19 17:33:00 auchter hey, they use nil instead of null... i like ruby now.
19 17:34:00 tommost Python uses None instead of null. Do you like it now?
19 17:34:00 auchter no, i hate it even more
19 17:34:00 tommost I knew it.
19 17:34:00 auchter nil is what's use in plan9 instead of NULL
19 17:34:00 tommost Ah. In Limbo?
19 17:35:00 auchter in limbo, too, but plan9's in C
19 17:36:00 tommost Plan9's C is nicer, too, isn't it? I recall reading something in the man pages about dealing with utf-8 and it seemed like a good interface.
19 17:37:00 andy753421 I like rubys zip because it's nicer to type and has less paren's: 'a.map{|n| n**2}.zip(a)' instead of 'zip(a, map(lambda n: n**2, a))'
19 17:38:00 auchter plan9's c library is rather nice, and of course it deals with utf-8. plan9 was the first operating system to support utf-8, and it was converted in one weekend
19 17:38:00 andy753421 ruby has a max nesting level of 1, while python is at 3 or so
19 17:39:00 tommost andy753421: No fair bringing lambda into this!
19 17:40:00 auchter oh, and the fact that you don't have to explicitly specify libraries to link against when calling 8l is damn awesome
19 17:40:00 tommost auchter: How does it work, then?
19 17:40:00 auchter #pragma's in the header files
19 17:41:00 tommost andy753421: ((n, n**2) for n in a)
19 17:41:00 andy753421 tommost: well, the same idea applies to anything, as an example that nobody would ever want to actually do: 'a.zip(a).zip(a).zip(a)' vs. 'zip(zip(zip(a,a),a),a)'
19 17:42:00 auchter ouch
19 17:42:00 auchter that second one looks like i'm looking into two mirrors opposite each other
19 17:42:00 tommost Actually, that's one thing in core C that I think really could have been done better. I prefer an include syntax that's a bit more... high-level.
19 17:42:00 tommost It does.
19 17:43:00 tommost andy753421: Point taken.
19 17:43:00 auchter psh, #include "true.c"
19 17:43:00 tommost I just think that the obligatory macros on headers are an indicator that something wasn't well thought out.
19 17:44:00 auchter what obligator macros on headers?
19 17:44:00 auchter s/r/ry/
19 17:45:00 tommost #ifndef MY_FILE_H \n #define MY_FILE_H \n ... \n #endif
19 17:46:00 auchter ah, ok.
19 17:46:00 auchter also, include files including other files makes me angry
19 17:48:00 tommost Mmm...
19 17:49:00 tommost There was a horrible module in the code that I'm working on at Ventures that imported a bunch of stuff and did nothing else. It was then from common import *'d from every other file in the module.
19 17:49:00 tommost I gave it a quick death.
19 17:52:00 andy753421 auchter: how do you do to get around datatypes/typedefs in function declarations without having headers include each other?
19 17:53:00 andy753421 just make sure that you include the datatype header in the .c file before the function declaration header?
19 17:54:00 auchter andy753421: that's what i've done, but i have never really worked on anything terribly complex
19 17:54:00 auchter i'm sure there are conflicts that would necessitate including headers in headers
19 17:55:00 andy753421 ok, i generally don't mind the #ifndef's and such
19 17:55:00 andy753421 actually, i would rather have the headers include other headers, that way their dependencies are documented
19 17:56:00 auchter that's actually a good point
19 18:00:00 andy753421 also, i like that my file server here as 32 Gb of ram and 64 Gb of swap space
19 18:01:00 auchter you should 'borrow' that when you leave
19 18:02:00 andy753421 yea, one of the other guys working here is actually using that as a workstation.. i'm jealous
19 18:02:00 andy753421 although, it's continuously being killed by matlab :/
19 18:02:00 auchter i wouldn't likely be able to put it to good use... my core2duo with 2GB ram is working out fine for me
19 18:02:00 auchter oh, matlab, that changes everything
19 18:04:00 Morasique tommost: your brother's cookie article is as well-written as it is complete
19 18:05:00 tommost Indeed.
19 18:05:00 tommost I at cookies for lunch today.
19 18:05:00 tommost *ate
19 18:06:00 tommost The were burnt, though. The dial on the oven makes 250 look very similar to 350.
19 18:09:00 auchter hmm... that pizza recipe looks good, but does anyone have one for cracker crust pizza?
19 18:13:00 andy753421 auchter: nope, but you could probably make one up :)
19 18:13:00 andy753421 (less water/yeast, and then just flatten it out more)
19 18:13:00 andy753421 might want to bake it a bit before putting the toppings on too
19 18:19:00 collinjc I am personally disappointed in the lack of updates to the recipes page.
19 19:16:00 tommost I'll do some experimenting the next time I make cookies.
19 19:16:00 andy753421 cookies is really to general, maybe we need subcategories of cookies for chocolate chip, sugar, peanut butter, oatmeal
19 22:15:00 auchter excellent flaming of vim in #plan9 now ;)
19 22:18:00 auchter "02:19 < uriel> Capso: vim makes emacs look like a sane operating system"
19 22:40:00 tommost Ah, nostalgia. http://www.dapreview.net/p/content/content.php?content.193
19 22:54:00 octaviou1 i think i owned a rio800
19 22:54:00 octaviou1 it had like 128mb of memory
19 22:54:00 octaviou1 it was sweet
19 22:55:00 octaviou1 but my friend had to one-up me with a creative jukebox
19 22:55:00 tommost I have a Karma. 20 GB. Sweetest MP3 player ever. Gapless FLAC.
19 23:05:00 tommost Unfortunately, not the best hardware ever. I have busted both the scroll wheel and the power button.
19 23:05:00 tommost :'(
19 23:17:00 Blazeix The next pmp I get will be dictated by the Rockbox supported hardware list.
19 23:25:00 tommost Same here. It's the only way I'll get anything approaching the featureset of the Karma.
19 23:26:00 tommost I'm seriously tempted by the Sansas going by on Woot.
19 23:38:00 andy753421 hehe, that vim flamewar was fun
19 23:38:00 andy753421 I would like to learn sam/acme, but I think I would need a three button mouse :/
20 05:11:00 Morasique is it possible to have a while loop with no body in bash?
20 07:38:00 crr I'm not sure, but at the very worst, you can use the "true" command
20 07:39:00 auchter andy753421: i narrowed down the problem with rc.vim
20 07:39:00 auchter if (grep 'test=b' somefile) { echo }, for example
20 07:39:00 auchter the single-quote and equal sign mixes it up
20 08:05:00 andy753421 auchter: seems oto work for me, i must have fixed that at some point, try the new version
20 08:08:00 auchter heh, oddly enough it works for me now
20 08:08:00 auchter i just downloaded rc.vim yesterday, though...
20 08:09:00 auchter oh, never mind, i was confused since your page was still cached and showed the update time as 2008-06-18
20 08:09:00 andy753421 ah, i think I know what it was
20 08:11:00 andy753421 it was having problems with foo|[1=b] thinking that that foo|]1 was a variable, so I changed rcVarDef to \s*\S\w*=
20 08:11:00 andy753421 well, add ^ to that
20 08:13:00 auchter but then that doesn't catch indented variable declarations
20 08:13:00 auchter oh, nevermind
20 08:13:00 auchter i forgot that you made the = sign be bound to the variable name
20 10:37:00 Morasique i don't know what drugs microsoft is on: http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/vccore/html/vcerrLinkerToolsWarningLNK4217.asp
20 10:45:00 andy753421 hehe, this could be distracting.. I just put 'echo >> /tmp/terms' in .zshrc and 'wc -l < /tmp/terms' in a status monitoring program :)
20 11:07:00 andy753421 auchter: so another rc question, how do you read from a file? (equivalent to 'while read line; do echo line is $line; done')
20 12:15:00 Morasique i've explained the concept of statically linked libraries twice to this other intern and he continues to mess it up
20 12:23:00 andy753421 is he trying to use shared libraries or something?
20 12:23:00 andy753421 shared libraries are better
20 13:06:00 Morasique no, the program we're using generates libraries, and then i wrote a little test application that links with them and uses them, and everytime we update the program that makes the libraries he gets the new code, builds it, runs it to make the libraries, copies the old test driver executable into the same folder and runs it, and i keep explaining that putting the old executable in the same folder as the new libraries isn't going to make it magic
20 13:24:00 auchter andy753421:
20 13:24:00 auchter ifs = '
20 13:24:00 auchter '
20 13:24:00 auchter for (line in `{cat whatever_file}) echo line is $line
20 14:00:00 andy753421 that doesn't pipeline though, 'cat whatever' gets evaluated completely before the body starts
20 14:01:00 andy753421 so if you substitute cat whatever with a fifo or a process it could cause problems
20 14:02:00 andy753421 i think i might ask in #plan9 about that and see if I can get flamed :)
20 14:12:00 andy753421 auchter: if you don't read the #plan9 backlog: '{ while (line=`{read}) echo line is $line } < whatever'
20 14:50:00 andy753421 auchter: eval (a b)^'='^(1 2)^';'
20 14:51:00 auchter andy753421: i forgot about the problem of cat being called each iteration
20 14:52:00 auchter andy753421: ...why?
20 14:53:00 andy753421 eval (id year month day hour min sec lat lon)^'='^`{read}
20 14:54:00 andy753421 unless there's a better way to do that that I don't now about
20 14:56:00 andy753421 so long as you trust user input :)
20 14:56:00 auchter oh, well, that's awesome
20 14:56:00 auchter just the a=1, b=2 case seemed worthless
20 15:56:00 andy753421 this is a great changelog.. "4/85 -; 6/88 - Cleaned up; 3/90 - Fixed so there are no writes past col 80; 10/04 - Modified to list grid sub-set; 9/06 - Recoded from Fortran;"
20 15:56:00 andy753421 yay code that is older than me :)
20 16:49:00 auchter i like the 2 years it took to "clean up" the code
20 17:02:00 auchter povilusr_: is that really necessary?
20 17:03:00 Morasique auchter: i've mentioned this several times i believe
20 17:03:00 povilusr_desktop ?
20 17:03:00 Morasique you're in here three times
20 17:03:00 povilusr_desktop yah
20 17:03:00 povilusr_desktop theres me
20 17:03:00 auchter to answer myself, no, it is not necessary
20 17:03:00 povilusr_ and me'
20 17:03:00 Morasique auchter: i think it was mostly rhetorical :)
20 17:03:00 povilusr_kaaba and me
20 17:04:00 Morasique povilusr_/povilsr_desktop/povilusr_kaaba: i see
20 17:04:00 povilusr_kaaba we want to be able to type
20 17:04:00 auchter yeah, i meant it as "choose one before i choose one for you"
20 17:04:00 povilusr_ on lugchat
20 17:04:00 povilusr_desktop no matter what computer we are on
20 17:04:00 povilusr_kaaba ypu shpuld be happy
20 17:04:00 auchter i use this account from three different computers on a daily basis.
20 17:05:00 povilusr_desktop i dont join with my tv computer
20 17:05:00 povilusr_ or my file server'
20 17:20:00 andy753421 /mode +b povilusr_*!*@*
20 17:22:00 auchter <clippy>You seem to have forgotten the space on that irc command, and the corresponding /kill. I'll help you.</clippy>
20 17:23:00 auchter s/kill/kick/
20 17:42:00 tommost jboticsource: http://www2.kelloggs.com/Product/ProductDetail.aspx?product=8213
20 17:42:00 auchter mmm, corn syrup
20 17:42:00 Morasique fucking stack variables, i hate this damn language
20 17:42:00 Morasique glares at everyone who likes C++, in all channels on IRC
20 17:43:00 auchter yeah, i don't think there's anyone here that masochistic
20 17:44:00 auchter a good quote from #plan9 last night, marginally related to C++: "02:27 < izaki> Even bjarne++ uses sam."
20 17:45:00 tommost I don't get it.
20 17:46:00 auchter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bjarne_Stroustrup
20 17:55:00 tommost How is that an endorsement of sam?
20 17:57:00 auchter i don't consider it an endorsement, i merely found the name "bjarne++" amusing
20 17:58:00 tommost Ah. It is, a bit.
20 18:06:00 Morasique this is fairly impossible. i'm in a debugger, and i can clearly see that i is a valid pointer, but *i is crashing the program
20 18:14:00 Morasique omg, no. this language is beyond idiocy. i pulled out part of the expression into a local variable and now it's totally fine, for no reason
20 18:17:00 andy753421 Morasique: what language, ms c?
20 18:17:00 Morasique c++
20 18:18:00 Morasique somebody explain to me what is different about these two blocks that makes the first not work but the second work: http://pastebin.com/m60958b86
20 18:18:00 Morasique also, i applaud pastebin's syntax highlighting. nicely done
20 18:18:00 Morasique although at least they have C, dpaste apparently feels it's not worth including
20 18:25:00 Morasique omg. i'm stepping through the broken version in the debugger, C++ destroys the vector right after the iterator is constructed, even though the iterator still has a reference to it and needs it. this language is like one step above deleting memory at random
20 19:17:00 crr Morasique: in C++ all automatic (local) variables are destroyed once they go out of scope
20 19:31:00 Morasique i know, but C++'s definition of "out of scope" kind of blows. it's not like garbage collected languages, a variable can go out of scope while other scopes still have a reference to it, so objects get destroyed that are still in use
20 19:32:00 octaviou1 new/delete operators?
20 19:32:00 Morasique that's for heap allocated stuff, we're talking about stack allocated
20 19:34:00 Morasique if you do (and this example is stupid obviously) Obj* x; {Obj y; x=&y}, x won't point to a valid instance of Obj, because y was destroyed at the end of the block even though x had a pointer to the same memory, so that pointer is bad now
20 19:34:00 Morasique and i make essentially the same mistake but not that simple all the time
20 19:35:00 Morasique a huge one is vectors, i make a vector and store stuff in it doing v.push_back(SomeObj(params)), you can't do that, because SomeObj is destroyed immediately because it goes out of scope once you exit the parentheses after push_back
20 20:08:00 andy753421 Morasique: I don't know anything about c++ but does push_bakc(new SomeObject(params)) work?
20 20:32:00 Morasique yeah, that's what I have to do. anything with heap allocation is fine, c++ won't auto-free any of that
20 20:43:00 andy753421 isn't that the whole point of stack allocation?
20 22:38:00 Morasique andy753421: i expect stack-allocated stuff to be freed when the method returns, that's when it has to be returned, but c++ goes above and beyond and frees in the middle of the method too, at times i don't expect
20 22:39:00 Morasique s/returned/freed/
20 22:40:00 tommost Well, I can see why you'd want that to be available, given a long-running thread, for instance.
20 22:42:00 tommost Would it be better done with some sort of explicit stack-deallocation operator? C++ loves its operators, right?
20 22:44:00 Morasique well, normally the stack is freed when a method returns, that's kind of logically how it works, you wouldn't manually free stack stuff. you might as well put it on the heap if you want to do that
20 22:44:00 Morasique c++ does love its operators though, i figured out what i was yelling about before where *ptr wasn't working correctly, it turns out that class had overridden the * operator to not de-reference, it did something else
20 22:44:00 Morasique which i didn't even know was possible, but should've expected
20 22:45:00 tommost Oooo... "smart" pointers?
20 22:45:00 Morasique i've heard of those but i've never used them. don't they just keep track of references or something?
20 22:45:00 crr operator overloading is amazing - don't dis it
20 22:45:00 crr it is your friend
20 22:45:00 Morasique crr: it is, i love it, but at that moment i was mildly annoyed :)
20 22:45:00 Morasique i've seen the alternative in java, and it's not pretty
20 22:45:00 crr I see
20 22:45:00 tommost Operator overloading is good. Overloading = is bad.
20 22:46:00 tommost Some things are sacred.
20 22:46:00 crr that's not true either - every class overloads = by default
20 22:46:00 tommost Mmmm... I'm not familiar enough with how C++ works to know whether that is sane or not.
20 22:46:00 Morasique as long as you override an operator intelligently it's not a problem, it's a POLS thing
20 22:46:00 crr yes
20 22:47:00 Morasique tommost: classes define auto-casts using =
20 22:47:00 tommost I really just mean that you shouldn't... er, exactly what Morasique said.
20 22:47:00 crr about smart pointers: they keep the pointer and a reference count, copying increases the reference count, and the object is deleted when the count hits zero
20 22:47:00 crr thus you don't have to worry about memory leaks or double deletes
20 22:47:00 Morasique ah. that seems like exactly how i was picturing normal pointers should be
20 22:47:00 Morasique i should look into that
20 22:48:00 tommost What happens if you loose the smart pointer?
20 22:48:00 Morasique it probably has a destructor
20 22:48:00 crr lose? how would you "lose" one?
20 22:48:00 crr the destructor decrements the reference count
20 22:48:00 tommost I have no idea. The concept confuses me.
20 22:48:00 tommost I don't understand how a pointer can be an object.
20 22:48:00 crr so you have all these smart pointer objects
20 22:49:00 Morasique if it went out of scope the destructor would run automatically, decreasing the reference count, so "losing the pointer" is equivalent to zeroing the reference count
20 22:49:00 crr they each have a pointer to some shared data structure
20 22:49:00 Morasique i remember somebody bringing up smart pointers in an interview once, i meant to look them up
20 22:49:00 crr this data structure has, amongst other things, a count and the "real" pointer
20 22:49:00 crr when you copy the pointer, you increment the count
20 22:49:00 crr the smart one, that is
20 22:50:00 Morasique since there is no dumb one :)
20 22:50:00 crr and when the smart pointer's destructor runs, it decrements the count
20 22:50:00 crr indeed
20 22:50:00 tommost How does it know that it has been copied? Does this not create a new one?
20 22:50:00 tommost Or is there more operator overloading at work here.
20 22:50:00 tommost ?
20 22:50:00 crr you overload =, and you have a copy constructor
20 22:50:00 crr either one of these would be a copy operation
20 22:50:00 tommost Copy constructor?
20 22:51:00 crr if you have a class c, the copy constructor would be:
20 22:51:00 crr public:
20 22:51:00 crr c(const c &);
20 22:51:00 Morasique tommost: it helps to realize everything you do to an object is a method call in C++, it's not like java where special things happen, setting it's value, casting it, all that stuff is overridable method calls in C++
20 22:52:00 tommost So objects must have a ton of methods, then.
20 22:52:00 Morasique well, they all have default implementations for that stuff
20 22:52:00 crr nope, just as many as you need
20 22:52:00 Morasique you can override them though
20 22:52:00 tommost This all seems terribly complex.
20 22:52:00 Morasique it's brilliant, i hate java so much more than i used to
20 22:52:00 Morasique with it's str1.equals(str2) bullshit
20 22:52:00 Morasique s/it's/its
20 22:52:00 crr indeed
20 22:52:00 Morasique /
20 22:52:00 Morasique i fail
20 22:53:00 tommost Well, of course Java is awful.
20 22:53:00 Morasique i liked java a lot before this summer, it's not dissimilar to c++ except for the verboseness
20 22:53:00 crr what's worse is that Java came *second* - they looked at C++ and went, "wow, this is a great language, how can we make it suck?"
20 22:54:00 tommost Is there a standard smart pointer? Like, just one that everyone always uses? Or is that not necessary?
20 22:54:00 Morasique :D well, they disliked op overloading because of the confusion it can cause like I had today, and they disliked pointer access because of the ability to screw yourself over like I did today. I suspect they had a lot of experiences like i did today
20 22:54:00 octavious auto_ptr?
20 22:54:00 Morasique I like C#'s implementation, they have no pointers unless you specifically want them, then you can declare a section of your code in an unsafe {} block and control memory directly there
20 22:54:00 crr auto_ptr isn't smart enough
20 22:55:00 crr boost::shared_ptr is good though
20 22:55:00 Morasique well now i feel ancient for using normal pointers
20 22:55:00 crr if only C# weren't C# (and MS) it would be reasonable
20 22:55:00 Morasique i've never actually used it, just stuff i've read
20 22:55:00 tommost What's the point of a standard library, then? From what I've heard it seems like virtually everyone bashes C++'s and prefers Boost.
20 22:55:00 crr I use it at work
20 22:55:00 crr C#, that is
20 22:56:00 tommost crr: Mono, or pain?
20 22:56:00 crr the second one (I didn't have a choice in the matter)
20 22:56:00 Morasique HA. suck it
20 22:56:00 Morasique i too am trapped in visual studio hell
20 22:56:00 crr SEP is very much a microsoft house
20 22:57:00 tommost Doesn't C++ have tons of different string objects?
20 22:57:00 crr but they pay me $19/hour and they're nice people, and the work is still pretty interesting, so I can't complain
20 22:57:00 Morasique just std::string as far as i know
20 22:57:00 tommost And then C "strings" thrown into the mix?
20 22:57:00 Morasique well, it has the old-style C strings too
20 22:57:00 crr tommost: everyone likes to make their own because std::string is too awesome
20 22:57:00 Morasique there's autocasting between them though
20 22:57:00 tommost How can you cast to something that isn't an object?
20 22:58:00 crr you can define a cast as a method
20 22:58:00 crr and then it's implicitly done
20 22:58:00 crr you can only do one implicit cast per expression though
20 22:58:00 Morasique i don't remember the syntax, but you define a cast that takes the source type and returns the target type, and you do whatever you want in the cast method as long as it returns the target type
20 22:58:00 crr yup
20 22:58:00 crr a one-argument constructor (or a constructor with enough default arguments that it can take exactly one) is also implicitly a cast operator
20 22:59:00 Morasique oh, i didn't know that. fancy
20 23:00:00 tommost How do default arguments work? Do you have keyword arguments like in Python?
20 23:00:00 Morasique no, just positional
20 23:00:00 tommost Lame.
20 23:00:00 Morasique that's a brilliant feature of python, all languages should have that
20 23:00:00 tommost Indeed.
20 23:00:00 crr fact
20 23:01:00 Morasique at least it has default arguments though, i may kill sun for leaving that out of java
20 23:01:00 tommost Yes.
20 23:01:00 Morasique i have no idea what the rationale there was, at least their other decisions i understand while disagreeing with
20 23:05:00 tommost s/Yes/Indeed/
20 23:16:00 Morasique omg, firefox 3 scrolls to page anchors properly
20 23:17:00 Morasique that has annoyed me for ages
20 23:22:00 tommost Why does FreeBSD have a "wheel" group instead of a "root" group?
20 23:23:00 Morasique everyone has a wheel group
20 23:23:00 Morasique it's from unix
20 23:23:00 Morasique ubuntu has one
20 23:24:00 tommost Interesting.
20 23:24:00 Morasique there was a thing on reddit once explaining why it was called that, i can't remember why now
20 23:25:00 tommost Yeah, it's a bit odd.
20 23:26:00 Morasique ah, here it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wheel_war
20 23:26:00 Morasique it doesn't actually explain why as far as i can see, just the origin
20 23:27:00 Morasique for example:
20 23:27:00 Morasique FEAR THE WHEEL
20 23:29:00 Morasique well, it's not really a wheel war if you don't kick me back. or, preferably, auchter
20 23:29:00 tommost I was more interested in the fact that tommost_aorist doesn't seem to be here.
20 23:29:00 tommost I checked on the machine it logs in from; it appears to have shut down.
20 23:30:00 tommost Along with the another machine next to it.
20 23:30:00 Morasique quit 19:51
20 23:30:00 Morasique er. power problem?
20 23:30:00 Morasique or they had a suicide pact
20 23:30:00 tommost They're on the same circuit as the fridge; maybe so.
20 23:33:00 tommost Why do all GNU utilities have that stupid "The full documentation for ____ is maintained as a Texinfo manual..." line at the end of their man pages? Why would I want to type a command that is more than four times as long as the corresponding man command?
20 23:33:00 Morasique because GNU is a bunch of asshats
20 23:33:00 Morasique info is the GNU version of man
20 23:33:00 Morasique that nobody uses
20 23:34:00 tommost Lame.
20 23:34:00 tommost Is there a way to activate text in a man page like it's a link?
20 23:34:00 Morasique that sounds dangerously like a plan9 feature
20 23:34:00 Morasique you can in the X version of man, but i hate that thing
20 23:34:00 Morasique xman, if you feel the need
20 23:34:00 tommost I have no desire to use the X version of man.
20 23:35:00 tommost OMG that was awful.
20 23:41:00 octavious too bad you arent talking about vim help pages, otherwise i would tell you CTRL-]
20 23:41:00 tommost Well, thank you for thinking of me.
20 23:41:00 tommost Maybe I'll start using vim this weekend.
20 23:44:00 auchter yeah, i don't know how all of you get by without plumbing on a daily basis
20 23:45:00 auchter and i don't mean the type that involves toilets and such
20 23:46:00 tommost Well, when I go to use the console I endeavor to *stop* using my mouse.
20 23:46:00 tommost Plumbing doesn't seem to help me in that effort.
20 23:47:00 auchter sure it does, i use it from the commandline everyday: plumb something.doc
20 23:47:00 Morasique i don't really see the point of that, it seems very similar to gnome-open
20 23:48:00 auchter mainly because it's very consistent for me to type/remember, but i do plumb using the mouse more often
20 23:48:00 tommost Sweet. I wish that I'd known about gnome-open long ago.
20 23:48:00 Morasique it's what gnome runs when you tell it to open something
20 23:48:00 Morasique go figure
20 23:49:00 tommost I just assumed that that functionality was integrated into Nautilus.
20 23:50:00 tommost Speaking of Nautilus, I need to figure out how to feed it the --no-desktop flag automatically when launching it from awesome-menu.
20 23:50:00 Morasique true. i used to use it a lot, but now i just have extension aliases for everything so i can run it directly
20 23:50:00 tommost How would you do that in dmenu?
20 23:57:00 Morasique ! i figured out how to manipulate X windows using the python GTK bindings
20 23:58:00 Morasique take that all you unhelpful people that ignored my many pleas
20 23:58:00 auchter tommost: find / | grep nautilus | xargs rm -rf
20 23:58:00 auchter just type that into dmenu
20 23:58:00 Morasique er
20 23:58:00 tommost Hehehe.
20 23:59:00 tommost You'll have to do a better job disguising that "rm -rf", auchter.
20 23:59:00 tommost Morasique: What are you doing?
21 00:00:00 crr smoking dope, I'd assume
21 00:00:00 Morasique i wanted to write scripts that would let me automate window manipulation stuff, like how a tiling wm will do but i wanted it in compiz, but i could never figure how to like switch the active window, or resize or move them or anything
21 00:00:00 Morasique and i finally figured it out
21 00:00:00 Morasique gtk is dope
21 00:00:00 Morasique ...
21 00:00:00 Morasique :)
21 00:00:00 tommost :D
21 00:01:00 tommost I look forward to watching you progress to a full tiling WM under Compiz.
21 00:01:00 Morasique with FIRE TEXT
21 00:01:00 tommost :')
21 00:01:00 auchter that is anything but dope
21 00:01:00 tommost (tears of joy)
21 00:09:00 auchter hm, solstice was around four hours ago
21 00:09:00 auchter i'm sorry i missed it
21 00:14:00 Morasique google had a logo up
21 00:14:00 Morasique and don't worry, you were there
21 00:30:00 tommost This is really interesting: http://www.xaprb.com/blog/2008/06/15/what-is-it-like-to-write-a-technical-book/
21 16:40:00 Morasique diskseek's man page description is the greatest thing i've ever read
21 16:41:00 Morasique also the first bug
21 16:42:00 tommost Hehe.
21 16:42:00 auchter hilarious indeed
21 17:17:00 Morasique wow. verizon is removing alt.* from their usenet cache because _apparently_ there is child pornography in there somewhere
21 17:17:00 Morasique i for one am shocked. shocked and saddened
21 18:46:00 tommost http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mosttw/lnk/rt-mockup-1.png
21 18:48:00 tommost auchter, andy753421: Feedback?
21 19:03:00 auchter tommost: looks fine to me, though i'm not completely sold on the colors
21 19:04:00 tommost Yeah, I've spent a lot of time trying to find something that goes with red/rose.
21 19:04:00 tommost It's really difficult.
21 19:04:00 auchter yeah... not to mention the fact that i'm not fond of the red/black/white thing rose has going on
21 19:04:00 tommost The other color that works nicely is blue, but then this looks like a political site (red, white and blue).
21 19:05:00 auchter something i'd too wish to avoid
21 19:05:00 tommost Yeah, I've tried to neuter the black a bit... I may make the text a dark gray.
21 19:06:00 auchter actually, the color scheme going on rose's site isn't too horrible
21 19:06:00 auchter perhaps some variation on that?
21 19:06:00 tommost I don't want to make it look exactly like Rose's site, but I do like their use of tan.
21 19:07:00 auchter well, adopting their colors/tweaking them a bit wouldn't make it look too much like their site
21 19:07:00 auchter in fact, it'd be hard to make something look that bad
21 19:07:00 tommost I'll experiment a bit with that, sure.
21 19:07:00 tommost :D
21 19:22:00 tommost http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mosttw/lnk/rt-mockup-2.png
21 19:29:00 tommost http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mosttw/lnk/rt-mockup-3.png
21 19:34:00 auchter hm, both are improvements (the kerning on the title is much improved compared to the first mockup)
21 19:38:00 andy753421 tommost: looks good
21 19:39:00 auchter any hover-differences for the links at the top?
21 19:40:00 tommost I was thinking that they'd underline when hovered.
21 19:40:00 tommost This is just an Inkscape mockup, though.
21 19:40:00 auchter i hate underlining with a passion, but whatever
21 19:40:00 tommost It's nice as a hover effect; it says "this is a link".
21 19:41:00 tommost As the storm has abated, I'm going to go over to the robotics lab and try to fix the server.
21 19:41:00 tommost Is anything else down over there?
21 19:41:00 auchter bela's down
21 19:41:00 auchter it might require intervention (press return at any prompts)
21 19:42:00 tommost Okay.
21 19:42:00 auchter i too am leaving for a while, let me know how it goes though
21 20:17:00 tommost_athena The Robotics Team's Windows box is producing strange errors and taking far too long to start up. I think that it's messed up.
21 20:17:00 tommost_athena Also, I can't log in on the Linux box.
21 20:17:00 tommost_athena I'm restarting it now
21 20:18:00 tommost_athena Yeah, still can't login.
21 20:18:00 tommost_athena andy753421: How were we planning on setting up the servers next year?
21 20:18:00 tommost_athena Now might be the time to get started.
21 20:20:00 andy753421 hehe, alright
21 20:21:00 andy753421 do we want to stick with having Robotics logins or switch to using Rose's kerberos stuff?
21 20:22:00 tommost_athena I'd personally prefer to have a separate login. But whatever is easiest.
21 20:22:00 andy753421 tommost_athena: any reasons for that?
21 20:24:00 tommost_athena I dislike throwing my Rose login around everywhere. The proper way to do it is like Case WRU does: a single sign on system.
21 20:24:00 tommost_athena The Rose login also works for Banner, which I want to keep secure.
21 20:24:00 andy753421 what is Case WRU?
21 20:24:00 tommost_athena I'd prefer to have secure logins for everything that involves money, and less secure ones for everything else.
21 20:25:00 tommost_athena Case Western Reserve University.
21 20:25:00 tommost_athena I read the blog of a web developer there.
21 20:25:00 andy753421 hm i'm so glad their login system is general knoledge..
21 20:25:00 andy753421 care to elaborate?
21 20:25:00 tommost_athena It's where I found out how to set up Django to authenticate against LDAP.
21 20:26:00 tommost_athena Actually, now that I think of it I'm not sure that they actually have an SSO system yet. Maybe the guy was just wishing they did.
21 20:26:00 andy753421 is confused
21 20:26:00 andy753421 so, how does their system work?
21 20:27:00 andy753421 (i'm pretty sure kerberos was designed to be a single sign on system..)
21 20:27:00 tommost_athena SSO would be like the way you can use your Google or Yahoo login on other sites without disclosing your password to them. It's an API.
21 20:27:00 tommost_athena Also, like OpenID.
21 20:27:00 tommost_athena OpenID would be nice.
21 20:27:00 tommost_athena Rose should run an OpenID provider based on LDAP --- that would solve all of our problems.
21 20:28:00 andy753421 how would that solve our problems?
21 20:28:00 andy753421 you would still be using the same password?
21 20:28:00 tommost_athena Well, thinking about it, I guess not, since OpenID wouldn't work for computer logins.
21 20:28:00 tommost_athena It would be useful for club web sites, though.
21 20:28:00 tommost_athena So you don't have to deal with LDAP.
21 20:28:00 andy753421 you could make a pam module for it
21 20:29:00 andy753421 but how is that any more secure?
21 20:29:00 tommost_athena Yeah, though it would kind of defeat the purpose.
21 20:29:00 tommost_athena It wouldn't be.
21 20:29:00 andy753421 so why is OpenID better than ldap or kerberos?
21 20:30:00 tommost_athena It is for web stuff, but it's not suitable for logging into a computer, since you have to type your password into the computer anyway (assuming that your OpenID provider authenticates based on a password, which isn't necessarily the case).
21 20:30:00 tommost_athena Anyway, forget OpenID, it's not relevant to the current discussion.
21 20:31:00 andy753421 ok, that makes sense then
21 20:32:00 andy753421 anyway, how about taking one of those machines and making it a full out server and not run desktop apps on it
21 20:32:00 tommost_athena Sure.
21 20:33:00 andy753421 then just make the other one a client for the server
21 20:33:00 tommost_athena And a backup machine.
21 20:33:00 andy753421 yea that'd probably be good too
21 20:34:00 tommost_athena Any objections to Ubuntu Server?
21 20:34:00 andy753421 well, yes, it's ubuntu.. but i'm willing to compromise
21 20:35:00 tommost_athena Good, 'cause otherwise you'd have to do it through SSH again... and that was a royal pain last time.
21 20:35:00 andy753421 wait, are you planning on setting this all up?
21 20:36:00 tommost_athena I was planning on doing it pretty soon, since I can't login to the Ubuntu machine at the moment.
21 20:36:00 tommost_athena Not today, though, since I don't have a CD here.
21 20:37:00 andy753421 what were you plans for backups?
21 20:37:00 tommost_athena Of the current machines?
21 20:37:00 andy753421 yes
21 20:38:00 tommost_athena I was going to wipe the Windows one after copying everything to the Ubuntu machine and then set it up as a server.
21 20:38:00 tommost_athena And then move everything back.
21 20:38:00 tommost_athena And then reformat the Ubuntu machine.
21 20:38:00 tommost_athena (This being done from a live CD, since I can't login to the Ubuntu machine.)
21 20:39:00 andy753421 I was actually wondering more about your definition of 'everything'
21 20:39:00 tommost_athena C:\*
21 20:40:00 tommost_athena Since I'm sure there are things in strage places.
21 20:40:00 andy753421 probably
21 20:40:00 andy753421 is there enough space for that?
21 20:40:00 tommost_athena Dunno. Let me check.
21 20:41:00 tommost_athena The Window's machine's C: has 10 GB used (of 111 GB total).
21 20:42:00 andy753421 it has other disk too though doesn't it?
21 20:42:00 tommost_athena D: ("FS Root") has 265/298 GB free.
21 20:43:00 andy753421 pick a freaking convention, free or used
21 20:43:00 andy753421 /rant
21 20:43:00 tommost_athena C: has 100 GB free.
21 20:43:00 tommost_athena Alright?
21 20:44:00 andy753421 no
21 20:44:00 tommost_athena Anyway, yeah, there is tons of free space around.
21 20:44:00 andy753421 alright
21 20:45:00 tommost_athena To what extent will everything be on the server? Does this include user home directories?
21 20:45:00 andy753421 it might be worthwhile to make an external backup backup of the current setup
21 20:45:00 tommost_athena I'll see if my external HD has enough space.
21 20:46:00 andy753421 um, I was thinking more along the lines of dvdr's so that we can archive them
21 20:46:00 tommost_athena Oh, sure. Do we have any DVDs?
21 20:46:00 andy753421 I don't know :)
21 20:46:00 tommost_athena I don't see any in the drawer I'd expect them to be in.
21 20:47:00 tommost_athena Well, I have plenty myself.
21 20:47:00 andy753421 but that way once we get the new setup done we can attempt find what's important and then delete the rest of the old windows stuff without having to worry
21 20:48:00 tommost_athena There isn't a DVD burner in either of these computers. I'm going to have to pull one out of one of my machines.
21 20:48:00 auchter any thoughts on using venti for storage?
21 20:48:00 tommost_athena Venti?
21 20:48:00 auchter tommost_athena: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sys/doc/venti/venti.html
21 20:48:00 andy753421 auchter: no
21 20:49:00 auchter well damn. any elaboration on that?
21 20:49:00 tommost_athena That sounds like a lot of trouble.
21 20:50:00 andy753421 $ find /usr/src/linux/ -name "*venti*"
21 20:50:00 tommost_athena I'll just set up a backup script that creates a hard link tree.
21 20:50:00 auchter $ find /usr/src/linux/ -name "*9p*"
21 20:50:00 auchter $ find /usr/lib/plan9 -name "*venti*"
21 20:51:00 auchter how many plan9 fileservers are in the kernel again? ;)
21 20:51:00 andy753421 auchter: because once both of us graduate nobody is going to know how to use plan9
21 20:51:00 auchter i'm not suggesting that we use plan9, it works under p9p
21 20:51:00 auchter in fact, using plan9 would be a terrible idea
21 20:52:00 auchter but venti is quite unique and would provide something rather useful for the team: a permanent archive of everything
21 20:52:00 tommost_athena So would a hard link tree.
21 20:52:00 tommost_athena Just with slightly less resolution.
21 20:52:00 auchter tommost_athena: yes, it's not block level
21 20:53:00 andy753421 tommost_aorist: how would a hardlink tree help?
21 20:53:00 andy753421 echo '' > important file
21 20:53:00 auchter plus, the way venti arenas work, it'd be awesome to back stuff up
21 20:53:00 tommost_athena You'd use the hard link tree for backup.
21 20:53:00 tommost_athena Not the regular storage area.
21 20:53:00 auchter tommost_athena: read that paper, i don't think you understand...
21 20:53:00 andy753421 i'm so confused
21 20:54:00 andy753421 how about this: we're not using venti or hard link trees
21 20:54:00 tommost_athena How are we going to do backup, then?
21 20:55:00 andy753421 there's about a dozen programs specifically designed to handle backup, how about we use one of those?
21 20:55:00 andy753421 i'm pretty sure this problem has already been solved under linux
21 20:56:00 auchter the increments in which they're done leave much to be desired...
21 20:56:00 tommost_athena I was going to use one to do the hard link tree, but whatever.
21 20:56:00 andy753421 auchter: agreed, but we have SVN for that
21 20:57:00 tommost_athena I'm going back to Skinner; I'll be right back.
21 20:57:00 andy753421 tommost: "I'll just set up a backup script that creates a hard link tree." I took that to mean you were planning to write one in python
21 20:58:00 auchter that's what i thought as well...
21 20:58:00 andy753421 so another question is what we want backup for
21 20:59:00 auchter i suppose for an event where we have hardware failure
21 20:59:00 auchter but really, me bringing up venti was more because of the archival ability
21 21:00:00 andy753421 yea, I don't think venti is good for us in terms of archival ability though
21 21:00:00 andy753421 it's good if your using it personally and know 'oh I wrote that file 3 years ago and placed it in /foo/bar'
21 21:01:00 andy753421 but for us we need to put important documents in places where they can be found
21 21:01:00 auchter yes, i suppose so
21 21:02:00 andy753421 hard links are half decent for archival as well, but they don't help machine crashes at all either
21 21:02:00 andy753421 (although they only help if you delete a file instead of overriding or changing it)
21 21:04:00 andy753421 anyway, this probably deserves to be looked into further, and I call not it
21 21:04:00 auchter me too
21 21:04:00 tommost http://www.kryogenix.org/days/2006/10/25/my-home-backup-system
21 21:05:00 auchter that link is borked
21 21:05:00 andy753421 oh, i hope we're not planning on using LVM
21 21:05:00 tommost No.
21 21:06:00 tommost I don't see any reason for that.
21 21:07:00 andy753421 ah, so you were using some random bloggers definition of a hard link tree
21 21:07:00 tommost His definition has fit with those that I've read since, so sort of.
21 21:08:00 tommost What did you mean?
21 21:09:00 auchter yeah, that's half-assed and doesn't even begin to compare to venti.
21 21:09:00 andy753421 you didn't mention anything about rsync so I though you meant a local hardlink tree to the actual files
21 21:10:00 tommost That would be pointless. How would that be a backup?
21 21:10:00 andy753421 just so that if you did 'rm foo' there'd still be another copy around
21 21:10:00 andy753421 it would be, that's why I was confused
21 21:10:00 tommost No, I was thinking that everything would be copied to another hard drive, and then copied to the other machine.
21 21:10:00 tommost So we'd have two backup copies.
21 21:11:00 andy753421 Ok, I think that has the same problem as venti of not actually helping for archival purposes
21 21:11:00 tommost How so?
21 21:11:00 andy753421 because nobody will be able to find anything important
21 21:12:00 auchter i think that could be solved for both venti and that method with some scripts
21 21:12:00 auchter but there goes maintainability
21 21:12:00 tommost andy753421: What do you mean? It'll be in exactly the same place that it would have originally been put.
21 21:12:00 andy753421 yes, and what if the backup machine dies? do we need a backup of the backup?
21 21:13:00 andy753421 tommost: exactly, I don't have /any/ idea where the team 5 years ago stored their documents
21 21:14:00 tommost So use a search program.
21 21:14:00 andy753421 cries
21 21:14:00 tommost Like Deskbar, or whatever it's called.
21 21:14:00 tommost andy753421: Come up with a solution yourself, then.
21 21:15:00 andy753421 I don't have any problem with what we have now, other than the fact that it's on windows
21 21:15:00 tommost What do we have now?
21 21:15:00 andy753421 make a folder for team documents, keep everything in a decent structure, and then just make a copy of it to another machine every day or so
21 21:16:00 tommost How does this backup scheme change any of that?
21 21:16:00 tommost It's exactly the same thing!
21 21:17:00 andy753421 I don't think we need backups for each day
21 21:18:00 andy753421 we need a backup for yesterday, but that's it
21 21:18:00 tommost Er, well, then that makes it even easier.
21 21:18:00 andy753421 although that has the problem that if something terrible happens and the backup runs, you're screwed
21 21:18:00 tommost unison
21 21:18:00 auchter yay yesterday(1)
21 21:19:00 auchter http://rafb.net/p/6BJQYC94.html
21 21:21:00 tommost Hehe.
21 21:21:00 tommost Well, in any case, I don't think that having archival copies of old stuff hurts.
21 21:22:00 andy753421 yea, but it could get big really fast
21 21:22:00 tommost The 400 GB of HD space on the Windows box says that doesn't matter.
21 21:22:00 auchter <subliminal>venti</subliminal>
21 21:23:00 tommost If it's a problem then you start deleting old backups.
21 21:23:00 andy753421 what do we want to have backups archives of though, everything?
21 21:23:00 auchter things we create, yes
21 21:23:00 auchter operating systems and associated files? no
21 21:25:00 tommost I'm with auchter.
21 21:25:00 andy753421 well, we should probably have at least one backup of OS files so that if the machine crashes we can restore it without having to reinstall and reconfigure everything
21 21:25:00 tommost Of course.
21 21:26:00 tommost It just doesn't need to archive old versions.
21 21:26:00 andy753421 so it's looking to me like we have three things going on here:
21 21:27:00 andy753421 1. Full machine backups (if something crashes we can restore it)
21 21:27:00 andy753421 2. Created files backups (if we accidentally delete something we can go back and get it)
21 21:27:00 andy753421 3. Historical backups for people from the future
21 21:28:00 tommost I'm thinking that 2 overlaps with 1 and 3.
21 21:28:00 andy753421 so 1 and 2 get done every day, but 2 only has one copy stored
21 21:29:00 tommost Is 2 of the entire machine?
21 21:29:00 andy753421 and 3 is just a folder somewhere that gets backed up with 1 whenever it gets done
21 21:30:00 andy753421 yea, 2 would be the entire machine
21 21:30:00 andy753421 whether we wan't to have part of that done by #1 depends on how we implement it
21 21:30:00 andy753421 I was just trying to list things that we need to have done
21 21:39:00 andy753421 so I'm thinking we'd have something like this: http://rafb.net/p/70NS6h82.html
21 21:44:00 tommost Okay, sure.
21 21:45:00 Morasique tommost: (i'm about an hour back in the log) what CWRU blog do you read?
21 21:50:00 tommost I can't seem to find it in Reader, so I really don't know.
21 21:50:00 tommost I also read one from Carthage College: http://www.carthage.edu/webdev/
21 21:51:00 Morasique well i was curious because i know a web developer that goes there, but i don't think he knows what django or ldap are, so it's probably not him
21 21:54:00 Morasique i'm convinced vixie-cron is on drugs. i can't get it to run anything when i tell it to
21 21:54:00 Morasique i keep telling it to touch a non-existant file in my home directory, and the time i told it to run passes without event, but then a day or two later all the sudden i'll notice the file exists, supposedly modified at the exact time it was supposed to be
21 23:36:00 auchter i blame your clock being set incorrectly
21 23:36:00 Morasique it's not, i checked it
21 23:38:00 auchter well, then i blame your use of time zones
21 23:56:00 Morasique oh, maybe that's it. does it not use local time?
22 02:02:00 tommost http://www.rose-hulman.edu/~mosttw/lnk/theme/template.html
22 02:45:00 Morasique tommost: bad news. you accidently made it in latin instead of english
22 02:47:00 tommost Hehe.
22 03:05:00 Morasique xlib is the worst documented thing i've ever seen, which is sad because it's in python, and python makes it so painfully easy to document stuff
22 03:06:00 Morasique i've been trying to figure out how to get the geometry of a window for the past hour, i ended up reading through the code to discover there's a "get_geometry" method. they apparently forgot about it when they made the list of available methods on their website
22 10:50:00 auchter tommost: looks good, but any reason for not justifying the text in the content div?
22 12:29:00 tommost auchter: Browsers do a terrible job of justifying text. I won't be using justification until they implement hyphenation.
22 12:49:00 crr do you frequently hyphenate words?
22 12:54:00 Morasique crr: i think he means he wants browsers to break words in the middle and add a hyphen to the end of the first line
22 12:54:00 Morasique there's a word-wrap: break-word CSS property, but i think it's IE only
22 12:54:00 crr that would explain it, although there's no reason to do that
22 12:55:00 crr the way that browsers do it is the same as how newspapers do it (which is what it's inspired from, after all)
22 13:06:00 auchter it should be done as latex does it, though
22 13:07:00 auchter hypenation is often necessary to make it look right
22 13:15:00 tommost Newspapers hyphenate words.
22 13:16:00 tommost Browsers don't.
22 13:16:00 tommost It's hugely different.
22 13:16:00 tommost And yes, break-word is IE only. Plus it doesn't add a hyphen.
22 13:16:00 tommost Technically, there's the soft hyphen ­, but it is very poorly supported.
22 13:17:00 tommost It is intended as a hyphenation hint—the browser should break the word at the soft hyphen if it needs to. But some browsers show the hyphen whether or not the word is broken there.
22 13:26:00 crr just how often are you stuffing a bunch of long words into small boxes?
22 13:26:00 crr because it seems like it shouldn't come up often
22 13:31:00 tommost When you start needing to wrap around images, etc. columns get narrow pretty quickly.
22 13:40:00 auchter http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage.jsp?skuId=8492026&productCategoryId=abcat0504002&type=product&tab=1&id=1186003685416
22 13:40:00 auchter that's rather tempting, sadly.
22 13:41:00 tommost That's a pretty good price.
22 13:41:00 auchter it would allow me to migrate from solaris, which is something i've been wanting to do for a while...
22 13:42:00 auchter would anyone be interested in buying that off of me for like $150 in a week or two?
22 13:49:00 andy753421 auchter: if I had a computer that supported SATA I would..
22 13:49:00 tommost Ah, the eternal dilemma.
22 13:49:00 Morasique wow. i want it
22 13:50:00 Morasique that seems like an oddly good price, which is confusing because i see bestbuy.com in my address bar
22 13:50:00 Morasique maybe this site is just spoofing best buy
22 13:50:00 tommost Indeed.
22 13:50:00 tommost BEWARE THE PHISHERS!!!
22 13:51:00 auchter i think i'm going to go to best buy and buy it
22 13:51:00 auchter i need to get away from solaris for my sanity
22 13:51:00 tommost Why does Solaris pain you so?
22 13:52:00 auchter it has really weird ways of managing daemons and such
22 13:52:00 auchter by that, i mean it's different from everything i've used before and have no desire to learn it
22 13:52:00 Morasique you need 1TB to do the move?
22 13:54:00 auchter i think i need around 600GB for the move
22 13:54:00 Morasique wow. you should have less data :)
22 13:55:00 tommost It's all those FLAC files... huge, but so worth it.
22 13:55:00 auchter yeah, i've got around 100 more cds that i need to rip since i decided that i didn't like solaris
22 13:55:00 auchter i've been putting it of since i wanted the amount of data i needed to move to be manageable
22 13:56:00 Morasique are you at vq for the summer?
22 13:56:00 auchter no, i'm in kentucky, actually
22 13:57:00 Morasique ah. well, if you wait till next year you can probably borrow some of povilusr_'s massive storage space, i've done that before
22 13:57:00 auchter haha, how much space does he have?
22 13:58:00 Morasique i think he's around 2TB total capacity, i don't know how much is free though
22 13:58:00 auchter hm, i just realized that installing a new os on this computer will be slightly difficult, considering how i don't have a monitor/keyboard here...
22 13:59:00 andy753421 auchter: put the disk in another computer and cross install it, then put the disk back in the correct computer
22 14:00:00 auchter andy753421: that would work if i had another computer here besides my laptop
22 14:00:00 Morasique auchter: monitors are for n00bs, you should have the install procedure down by now. go pick up a $5 keyboard from somewhere and do it blind
22 14:01:00 auchter well, actually i do, but i still have the same problem of not having a keyboard/mouse (and that computer doesn't have sata)
22 14:01:00 auchter s/mouse/monitor/
22 14:01:00 andy753421 auchter: how many partitions are on that thing right now?
22 14:01:00 tommost Re mouse: Good, I was scared for a moment there.
22 14:02:00 Morasique i assumed auchter destroys all the mouse ports on his computers to make a statement
22 14:02:00 andy753421 auchter: just find a livecd that starts up and defaults to running ssh with some known root password
22 14:02:00 andy753421 or! does it have a serial port?
22 14:03:00 auchter yes, it does, and i was considering that
22 14:07:00 Morasique is there a moderately simple way to hook into file/folder accesses?
22 14:07:00 Morasique like i want my program to run when somebody tries to open folder X
22 14:07:00 andy753421 Morasique:
22 14:08:00 andy753421 Morasique: you might be able to use epoll
22 14:09:00 Morasique this looks like it. thanks
22 14:11:00 Morasique this just started happening yesterday, and i have no idea what i would search for to try and figure out the cause: randomly when i switch viewports, the cursor in whatever terminal or window i have open will start flickering on and off rapidly, and the mouse switches between the normal cursor and the working cursor really fast, for about 20 seconds, and my machine is pretty much unresponsive during that time
22 14:11:00 Morasique hopefully somebody knows what causes this
22 14:12:00 andy753421 what do you mean by viewports?
22 14:13:00 Morasique virtual desktops
22 14:13:00 andy753421 in what window manager?
22 14:13:00 Morasique the best one
22 14:13:00 Morasique ...compiz
22 14:13:00 Morasique i'm hoping it's not compiz's fault, although i'm having trouble seeing how it's not
22 14:13:00 andy753421 ah, i do know what causes that problem.. Compiz.
22 14:14:00 tommost You could try to reproduce in Metacity.
22 14:14:00 Morasique i could, but that would involve using metacity
22 14:14:00 Morasique if it comes to that i will
22 14:14:00 tommost :(
22 14:16:00 tommost I have to use Metacity at work. It makes me sad.
22 14:16:00 tommost It's like Compiz without all the bits that make it efficient to use.
22 14:16:00 andy753421 Ba hahaha
22 14:16:00 Morasique it's like compiz in that it manages windows, that's about where the similarities stop
22 14:17:00 tommost Indeed.
22 14:18:00 Morasique http://71.98.91.137/diff.html
22 14:19:00 Morasique you can consult that if there's any further confusion
22 14:19:00 tommost Hehe.
22 14:23:00 Morasique i'm thinking of all the things i've changed recently, and i've decided to blame firefox 3 for this
22 14:24:00 tommost Likely a sound decision.
22 14:24:00 tommost (Assuming, of course, that you don't have an ATI graphics card, in which case they would obviously be a better candidate.)
22 14:25:00 Morasique fortunately i do not
22 14:27:00 Morasique apparently metacity doesn't support extended window manager hints
22 14:30:00 tommost I'm pretty sure it does... I have run xpra under it.
22 14:31:00 Morasique hmm. well, it's ignoring my script that worked under compiz for some reason
22 14:38:00 tommost What does this script do?
22 14:40:00 Morasique the thing i was talking about yesterday that lets me move/resize windows and change focus and whatnot
22 15:04:00 Morasique sadly i don't appear to be having the problem in metacity. i switched to compiz with firefox 2 hoping it still won't break :)
22 15:04:00 tommost Good luck.
22 15:18:00 Morasique it actually seems to be working. damn you firefox 3!
22 15:28:00 tommost andy753421: How were you thinking we'd do user authentication for the robotics servers? LDAP?
22 15:29:00 andy753421 ldap would probably be easiest
22 15:30:00 tommost Yegh. I was hoping that this password change tool could die.
22 15:30:00 tommost Can we set it up so that the password can be changed by passwd?
22 15:30:00 andy753421 I think so
22 15:30:00 tommost That would be nicest.
22 15:31:00 tommost I want to keep the website as simple as possible.
22 15:31:00 tommost Given that I don't think that I can escape PHP.
22 15:32:00 Morasique :D i just emerged nmap, this showed up at the end of the configure output: http://pastebin.com/m27a82774
22 15:33:00 auchter Morasique: you see the things you miss when you use binary packages?
22 15:33:00 Morasique indeed
22 15:34:00 Morasique it was scrolling by really fast on my other monitor and all the sudden i found myself wondering if i had really seen what i thought i saw
22 15:39:00 tommost The current web site stuff makes me sad. He keeps using PHP files to do redirects, presumably because using both Apache and IIS means you can't do it in a .htaccess file.
22 15:40:00 auchter start from scratch and ignore what's there
22 15:40:00 auchter that's likely the only sane option at this poit
22 15:41:00 tommost That's more or less what I was thinking.
22 15:41:00 tommost I haven't yet figured out how half the stuff on the project subdomain is configured, like Trac and SVN.
22 15:44:00 tommost And round-robin DNS seems to have just failed me—Firefox is trying to load the page from the Linux box.
22 16:02:00 tommost MediaWiki templates make me very sad.
22 16:05:00 tommost Do we really need the distinction of www and project subdomains?
22 16:09:00 tommost Oh, another TODO for next year's IGVC: don't set down next to Bob Jones University.
22 16:10:00 Blazeix Does anybody know if the power went out recently in percopo?
22 16:10:00 tommost Probably.
22 16:10:00 Blazeix A serverI'm in charge of doesn't seem to be responding
22 16:11:00 tommost I'll restart it for you if I can get at it.
22 16:11:00 Blazeix Its nothing critical, but it would be nice if you get the chance.
22 16:11:00 tommost Where is it?
22 16:12:00 Blazeix I'll IM you the details.
22 16:32:00 Morasique Blazeix: it's possible somebody had a burning need to play WoW again
22 16:32:00 Blazeix *sigh* I wouldn't put it past them.
22 18:04:00 Blazeix That was sad. i was just talking with a bunch of people about python, and everyone said that they hated it because it makes you format your code.
22 18:04:00 Blazeix That shouldn't ever really be an issue.
22 18:04:00 tommost Indeed.
22 18:05:00 tommost I don't want to work with anyone who doesn't indent their code.
22 18:06:00 auchter i don't indent case statements below a switch, does that make my code look horrible? no, it makes it more readable.
22 18:07:00 tommost auchter: Python has no switch, so that's irrelevant.
22 18:07:00 tommost All of Python's constructs are ones that should be indented.
22 18:08:00 auchter uh, so what do you use in place of a switch?
22 18:09:00 tommost Either and if...elif...else chain (if there are few possibilities) or a lookup in a dictionary.
22 18:09:00 tommost You only really feel the lack on one of those rare cases where you could actually use the fallthrough a switch case provides.
22 18:10:00 tommost Generally, if you have more than four or five things in an if..else, you're doing it wrong.
22 18:10:00 auchter i suppose so, and it seems that i often end up doing something similar to the dictionary lookup anyway
22 18:10:00 auchter in a horrible way, but as rob pike says "...n is usually small."
22 18:13:00 tommost Hash tables are the things that I most miss about Python and JS when I'm writing C. I need to learn glib before I take another C class, but I can't think of a project to learn it with.
22 18:14:00 auchter if you're just using hash tables, i'm sure there are some other (smaller) libraries for that
22 18:14:00 auchter or hell, write your own
22 18:14:00 tommost Yeah, I should definitely write a hash table at some point.
22 18:15:00 tommost But for class projects I'd prefer to use Glib, since it's likely that the grader will have it available.
22 18:17:00 Morasique i use this to get around the switch thing: http://pastebin.com/m6d5032ef
22 18:17:00 Morasique because i for one miss it terribly
22 18:18:00 auchter tommost: oh, and speaking of hell, you were next to bob jones?
22 18:18:00 tommost That's a nifty hack.
22 18:19:00 tommost Almost. They were across the tent.
22 18:19:00 auchter i don't know how you handled that
22 18:19:00 auchter they are the embodiment of everything wrong and evil in this world
22 18:19:00 tommost I tried not to look at them.
22 18:20:00 tommost They had this weird robot running Windows 3.1 or something.
22 18:20:00 auchter also, they'll never know i said that, as they're not allowed on the internet
22 18:20:00 tommost (I am not exaggerating; one of their robots really did run Windows 3.1.)
22 18:22:00 Morasique :D what is this place of evil?
22 18:23:00 auchter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Jones_University
22 18:23:00 auchter controversies is a fun place to start
22 18:23:00 andy753421 clearly everything is better if you throw in random OpenGL cubes :) http://lug.phire.org/mw/images/c/c7/Aweather.png
22 18:24:00 Morasique protestant fundamentalist liberal arts university. i hate them already
22 18:24:00 auchter andy753421: is the cube the earth?
22 18:24:00 andy753421 nah
22 18:26:00 auchter i was joking about that, i probably should have made that more clear
22 18:27:00 andy753421 i sort of assumed that, but didn't give it much thought
22 18:28:00 andy753421 unfortunately that image contains over 2 million polygons :(
22 18:28:00 Morasique we really need a sarcasm mark
22 18:28:00 tommost How's your computer handling that?
22 18:28:00 andy753421 slowly :)
22 18:28:00 tommost Morasique: ~
22 18:29:00 andy753421 the people over at ##OpenGL keep telling me to learn pixel shaders, but I don't want to..
22 18:29:00 tommost Blazeix: It has started raining here, so I may not get to your server tonight.
22 18:29:00 Morasique tommost: are you decreeing ~ the sarcasm mark or is that actually accepted
22 18:29:00 auchter hey, it just started raining here, too
22 18:29:00 Blazeix tommost, that's fine.
22 18:29:00 auchter Morasique: i've seen it used by one person on slashdot
22 18:29:00 tommost I had thought that it was accepted.
22 18:30:00 tommost I've been using it for months.
22 18:30:00 andy753421 I have never heard of that
22 18:30:00 tommost andy753421: Why is it ##OpenGL instead of #OpenGL?
22 18:31:00 andy753421 tommost: http://freenode.net/topical_groups.shtml
22 18:31:00 andy753421 i guess http://freenode.net/policy.shtml#topicalchannels is better
22 18:32:00 tommost Ah, I understand.
22 19:14:00 auchter since when have there been images in the article summary on slashdot?
22 19:15:00 tommost Are you referring to the "Galaxy Zoo" story?
22 19:15:00 auchter yes
22 19:41:00 tommost So I have some "400 Mhz" DDR RAM and my BIOS is reporting "Memory Frequency is at 200 MHz". Is it just the DDR marketing confusing me, or is something wrong?
22 19:43:00 Morasique is the motherboard jumpered wrong?
22 19:43:00 tommost I think that it's stock.
22 19:44:00 tommost I can try resetting the BIOS.
22 19:45:00 auchter
